University of California • Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
California Horticulture Oral History Series
Wayne Roderick
CALIFORNIA NATIVE PLANTSMAN:
UC BERKELEY BOTANICAL GARDEN, TILDEN BOTANIC GARDEN
With an Introduction by
Walter Knight
Interviews Conducted by
Suzanne B. Riess
in 1990
Copyright (T) 1991 by The Regents of the University of California
Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading
participants in or well -placed witnesses to major events in the development of
Northern California, the West, and the Nation. Oral history is a modern research
technique involving an interviewee and an informed interviewer in spontaneous
conversation. The taped record is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity
and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The resulting manuscript is typed
in final form, indexed, bound with photographs and illustrative materials, and
placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and
other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material,
oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete
narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in
response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved,
and irreplaceable.
************************************
All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement
between The Regents of the University of California and Wayne
Roderick dated June 13, 1990. The manuscript is thereby made
available for research purposes. All literary rights in the
manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The
Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. No part
of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written
permission of the Director of The Bancroft Library of the University
of California, Berkeley.
Requests for permission to quote for publication should be
addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 486 Library,
University of California, Berkeley 94720, and should include
identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated
use of the passages, and identification of the user. The legal
agreement with Wayne Roderick requires that he be notified of the
request and allowed thirty days in which to respond.
It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:
Wayne Roderick, "California Native
Plantsman: UC Berkeley Botanical Garden,
Tilden Botanic Garden," an oral history
conducted in 1990 by Suzanne B. Riess,
Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft
Library, University of California,
Berkeley, 1991.
Copy no. JL
Wayne Roderick, 1991
Photographed in U.C, Botanical Garden
by Suzanne B. Riess
Cataloging Information
RODERICK, Wayne (b. 1920)
Plantsman
California Native Plantsman: UC Botanical Garden. Tilden Botanic Garden. 1991,
ix, 166 pp.
Petaluma CA childhood: chicken ranching, mother's garden, Roderick family
nursery, 1945-1959; UC Berkeley Botanical Garden, California native area,
1960-1976: management and staff, collecting botanical material for class use,
developing the garden; Tilden Park Botanic Garden, 1976-1982: supporters,
California Native Plant Society, Jim Roof, objectives of garden; comments on
rare and endangered species inventory, Native Plant Study Group, plant
collecting policies, botanists and taxonomists, English horticulturists.
Appended articles by Roderick.
Introduction by Walter Knight, Field Associate, California Academy of Sciences
Botany Department.
Interviewed 1990 by Suzanne B. Riess for the California Horticulture Oral
History Series. The Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library,
University of California, Berkeley.
Donors to the Wayne Roderick Oral History Project
The Bancroft Library, on behalf of future researchers, wishes to
thank the following persons whose contributions made possible this
oral history project.
David and Evelyne Lennette
American Rock Garden Society, Western Chapter
Stanley Smith Horticultural Trust
Ann Witter Gillette
TABLE OF CONTENTS --Wayne Roderick
INTRODUCTION by Walter Knight i
INTERVIEW HISTORY v
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION viii
I FAMILY AND EARLY YEARS, 1920-1945 1
Family Origins 1
A Petaluma Chicken Ranch in the 1930s 3
A "Plant Happy" Family 6
Japanese Nurseries and the War 9
From Weeds to Orchids 11
The Oakland Spring Garden Show 13
Early Attempts at Rock Gardens , Native Gardens 14
Mother's Blue Ribbon Garden in Petaluma 15
War Experience, College Experience 19
Learning Plants 22
II NURSERY BUSINESS, 1945-1959 24
Hard Work: Propagating, Dealing with Customers, Staying Ahead 24
Fellow Nurserymen: Victor Reiter, Toichi Domoto 26
Protecting Stock, in the Nursery and in the Wild 28
Sunset Western Garden Book- -An Opinion 31
Working with Landscape Architects 32
Garden Snobs , and the Garden Conservancy 34
III UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BOTANICAL GARDEN, 1960-1976 39
Job Possibilities for Roderick, 1960 39
"Continuing Education" 40
Employees and Managers at the Garden 41
Weeding, and Collecting Class Material 45
"Desk Work" and the Dawn Redwood Fuss 48
California Native Area 50
Triumphing over the Soil 51
Plant Islands, Soil Tests 54
A Vernal Pool and A Pygmy Forest 55
Native Garden, Strybing Arboretum 58
Western Hills Nursery, Occidental, California 59
Cross-State Collecting Trips 61
Programs: Indian Uses, and Explorers of the West 62
Roses and Orchids, and the Public 64
More on Employees and Managers at the Garden 65
Sixties^ Disruptions at the Garden 66
Upgrading Field Data 68
Horticultural Characters 69
Flood and Frost at the Garden 71
Mather Redwood Grove 73
"Retirement" 74
IV NATIVE PLANTS 77
Tilden Park Botanic Garden, William Penn Mott and Friends 77
Ledyard Stebbins, and Leadership of California Native Plant
Society 79
Inventory of Rare and Endangered Plants in California 83
Propagating the Rare and Endangered 85
Inventory of California Natural Areas 87
Collecting on Public Lands 89
Horticultural Value of Native Plants 91
Saving Natural Areas 93
Carl Purdy, Theodore Payne, and Lester Rowntree 96
Taxonomists 98
V TILDEN PARK BOTANIC GARDEN, 1976-1982 100
Jim Roof 100
Records and Numbering System 104
Mapping, Thinning (Ted Kipping) , Digging 105
Staff and the Public 108
The Bad with the Good 109
Meeting Fellow Botanic Gardeners 110
Regions and Zones 112
VI THE BIG HORTICULTURAL PICTURE: INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIONS 114
Wildf lowers , Flora, Keys, Terminology 114
Styles of Writing and Speaking About Horticulture 117
Know-How 119
England: E. B. Anderson, Chris Brickell, Alice Moore 120
Collecting and Sharing Bulbs 123
Garden Climates and Colors 126
Turkey 127
Coming Through Customs 129
Seed Exchange 130
Awards 132
Native Plant Study Group: Publication Plans 133
"Doing the Flowers" 138
Compost 140
TAPE GUIDE 142
APPENDICES 143
A. "Propagation of Native Plants with Bulbs, Tubers, Corms, 144
Rhizomes, and Rootstocks," by Wayne Roderick and W. Richard
Hildreth, Fremontia. Journal of the California Native Plant
Society, Volume 3, April 1975.
B. "The 1989 SPCNI Spring Expedition," Spring 1989 issue of 154
the Society of Pacific Coast Native Iris Almanac . pp. 7-10.
C. "Wildflower Haunts of California," by Wayne Roderick, 158
Bulletin of the American Rock Garden Society. Vol. 48 (1)
Winter 1990, pp. 3-13.
INDEX 164
INTRODUCTION --by Walter Knight
Wayne Roderick and I were both born in Petaluma, and we lived only a
half mile apart, but since I am seven years older our paths never crossed
during school years.
After World War II Wayne and his parents conducted a nursery
business and my wife and I had an interior decorating shop. Both of our
enterprises were on the property where we were born.
In the late 1950s and early 1960s my wife, Irja, would go to the
Roderick Nursery to buy plants to enhance the area about the garden. But
it was not until about 1961 that I met Wayne for the first time. It was
one Saturday morning when he came to our shop to buy some window shades
for a house he had recently purchased in Berkeley. He had given up his
nursery business and begun employment with the University of California
at their Berkeley botanical garden in the native Calif ornian plant area.
At the time I was much interested in photography and seemed to be
attracted to taking pictures of flowers although I did not know one plant
from the other. During our conversation while preparing the window
shades, we both became aware that we had something in common—plants.
The rest of the day was spent in looking over my slides. It resulted
that I had taken many pictures of native material. Wayne said that most
of his botanical experience had been with ornamentals and that even
though he had been assigned to the university's native area, he could
learn a lot more about the botany of California.
We agreed that if he would come to Petaluma after work on Fridays,
we could go on field trips over the weekend and further our knowledge of
the local flora. So each Saturday morning Wayne and his mother would
accompany Irja and me to some interesting place where we could photograph
and collect plants. When Wayne would return the next Friday, the four of
us would get together and study the pictures from the previous weekend.
With the help of literature we would identify the plants as they appeared
on the screen. This routine continued for a couple of years until we all
became more comfortable with our ability to identify and grow the plants
that we had studied.
Wayne continued to work at the University of California botanical
garden in Berkeley until 1976. He became director of the Regional Parks
Botanic Garden in Berkeley where he remained until his retirement.
ii
All during the time he worked at Berkeley, it was apparent to all of
his friends that he had a special devotion to his mother. Each weekend
he would go to Petaluma to assist her with shopping and some of the
heavier chores in her garden.
Paralleling this time, in 1965 I went to work as a gardener for the
same Regional Parks Botanic Garden and soon was working as supervisor.
In 1971 I became supervisor of several developing parks within the East
Bay Regional Parks District. In 1979 I became a park administrator
working out of the main office. Tilden Park and the Regional Parks
Botanic Garden were placed in my jurisdiction.
The best part of this development was that Wayne and I had the
opportunity of being together again. I soon learned that he had enhanced
the management of the botanic garden considerably since I had left it in
1971. He had started a winter lecture series for the visitors' center.
Highly qualified speakers attracted large audiences to the little
auditorium to hear of the latest horticultural methods or see a slide
show of interesting field trips.
He also enhanced the garden by installing a freshwater pond with
many plants found within the California botanical province. The water
gradually seeped out of the first pond constructed, so Wayne found a
garden patron who "bankrolled" a plastic liner which was placed at the
bed of the pond and the problem was solved.
Also, he inspired a crew of volunteers to do watering in the garden
and to remove the sporadic seedlings. These seedlings were carefully
canned and labelled and later sold at what turned out to be an annual
spring plant sale. The proceeds of the sale were put into a trust fund
used for garden development. Ultimately, some of the good things which
resulted were a chain link fence around an addition to the garden, a 495
page garden guide, which I had the good fortune to compile, and paved
paths for easy access.
Thus many good things happened to considerably enhance the quality
of the garden, largely because of Wayne's ability to generate friendships
with garden visitors and to bring his old friends to assist in garden
maintenance and development. For example, Ted Kipping, a tree shaper,
brought his crew to do tree surgery and eliminated growth detrimental to
some of the trees. This would have drained the botanic garden budget
considerably if an "outsider" had been hired to take care of this.
Also, the Regional Parks Botanical Garden became a showcase for lily
displays as well as other small plants which were never featured in the
garden before Wayne's time. He took a special liking to bulb plants and
became an expert in their cultivation.
Ill
Our contact with each other during Wayne's last couple of years at
the garden was fortunate as he never liked to do anything with record
keeping or paper work. He always delegated those duties, so I was happy
to help him with his office work as I knew that would enable him to spend
more time on projects within his area of expertise. Also, as I was handy
with carpentry, I built some shelves and cabinets to make his office
facility better.
I always had the feeling that I was the culprit who forced Wayne's
retirement from the garden because when I left in 1981, Wayne said, "I'll
be damned if I'm going to do any of that paper work, so I'm quitting
too ! "
During the time of his association with nurseries, botanic gardens,
and the California Horticultural Society, he developed a skill in
formulation, care, and maintenance of rock gardens. He was asked to
lecture on the subject in Canada and England. He travelled to Spain,
Turkey, Russia, and Mexico in his pursuit of horticultural knowledge. He
always collected seed whenever he could and has conducted a seed exchange
program for many years .
During his foreign travel he has met many world- renowned
horticulturists and maintained contact with them. His home in Orinda has
been open constantly to guests interested in plants, and he has taken
them on field trips to all his favorite collecting sites.
Over the years I have been fortunate in becoming acquainted with
scores of botanists and horticulturists interested in the California
flora. For the most part, these individuals are never bored during their
working career or in their retirement. Their vocation is their hobby.
Many of them never take the time to watch television as they have almost
total dedication to their prime activity. Wayne goes even beyond this as
I have never known any of his waking moments that he is not engaged in a
horticultural or botanical pursuit.
In retirement, Wayne probably makes as much of a contribution to the
botanic garden as he did when he was director, as he volunteers so much
of his time to it.
As a side note, Martha, Wayne's mother, moved from the nursery
location in the country to Petaluma where she grew a collection of plants
that was the envy of gardeners throughout the country. In fact in the
late 1970s she won an award for having the best garden in the area. We
took our eight-year-old granddaughter, Tiffany, to visit Martha's garden
and even at that young age, she said, "Mrs. Roderick has the most
beautiful garden in the world."
IV
Wayne's skill is not only horticulture but in developing
friendships. That is why he will be remembered.
f
Walter Knight
Field Associate, California Academy of
Sciences, Botany Department, San
Francisco
February 22, 1991
Petaluma, California
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Wayne Roderick's entire life has been dedicated to sharing his
knowledge of flowering plants and flowering places. The formal sharing,
and educating, has taken the form of running a nursery in Petaluma,
California, and two native plant botanic gardens in Berkeley. Informally
everyone knows Wayne Roderick through his participation in horticultural
societies and garden groups. He is retired now, but he is busy all over
the horticultural map. He gives classes in flower arranging, he opens
his house and garden annually to, among others, the members of the
American Rock Garden Society, Western Chapter, and to his many
horticulturist friends, from Oregon and Nevada and abroad. And he gets
out into that garden every day and weeds and loves it!
All such formal and informal reasons, as well as admiration for
Wayne Roderick's contribution to knowledge of California native plants,
inspired David and Evelyne Lennette, originators and sponsors of the
California Horticulture Oral History series, to recommend Mr. Roderick to
the Regional Oral History Office as an interviewee in the series.
Further strong endorsement came from Dr. Robert Ornduff , director of UC
Berkeley's Botanical Garden, and from George Waters, editor of Pacific
Horticulture .
My first introduction to Wayne Roderick came on March 4, 1990, a
drizzly Sunday in spring. It was Open House at 166 Canon Drive in Orinda
for members of the American Rock Garden Society, Western Chapter, and it
was prime time to see rock garden bulbous plants in situ, some in bloom.
Wayne --it was immediately clear that I could address him informally- -had
already heard about the Regional Oral History Office of The Bancroft
Library from Adele and Lewis Lawyer, friends from the rock garden and
iris worlds and interviewees in the horticulture series, and that day he
said he was agreeable to the idea of tape-recording his history.
Interviewing began on April 30, 1990, after Wayne's trip to England
and Turkey. We met in his living room for four two-hour sessions that
were concluded on June 6th. The interviews were designed to be a
chronological account, deriving from Wayne Roderick's vita, where he
states he was born in the same home where his father was born, in
Petaluma, California and into a "plant-happy family." "I had my first
plot of ground before I was five years old... first rock garden by age
sixteen. "
vi
Wayne and his father Frank Roderick opened a nursery in Petaluma in
1945. In 1959, after the death of his father, Wayne closed the nursery
and came down to Berkeley to take a job at UC Berkeley's Botanical
Garden. He was head of the California section of the garden, and
lecturer there, from 1960 to 1976. He went on to be director of the East
Bay Regional Parks Botanic Garden from 1976-1983, and retired in 1983.
In his vita Wayne Roderick describes his specialty as California
native bulbs and rock garden plants, as well as bulbs from other lands.
In 1966 he received an award from the California Horticultural Society
for his contribution to their work. The award particularly noted Wayne's
devotion to the horticultural society's seed exchange scheme:
"He collects the seeds, prepares the lists and attends to the
dispatch. For almost every one of the monthly meetings he
brings plant material and assists in the organization of the
discussion sessions... He is frequently to be encountered
running errands of mercy for his friends (which means
everyone). Given... the opportunity of a foreign vacation he
plunges deeply on a detailed reconnaissance of famous and
nearly- famous British Gardens, together with a talk to the
Royal Horticultural Society. . .Let him get into the Sierra or
the North Coast Ranges or way out into the desert. . .he will
return with booty and information. . ."
The reward was given for "selfless service."
The thinking behind the oral history interviews was to allow the
personal qualities, train of thought and associations, working manner and
style of this extraordinary horticulturist to bear witness to itself.
Wayne is a "character" by his own and his friends' acknowledgment. He is
not without temperament, and certainly not without opinions, reliably and
consistently himself. He was completely open to the oral history
interview process. Spoken history was a perfect medium for him.
Spontaneous, talkative, and un-self -conscious , he needed no encouragement
to share his thoughts on the subjects we were documenting and the people
we wanted to know more about. He was candid in his choice of words.
Wayne Roderick is also candid in writing. His recent article on
"Wildflower Haunts of California" in the Bulletin of the American Rock
Garden Society [appended] echoes his spoken language. He promises the
reader he will "bring the wrath of California down on your head for
digging any plant! But California will bless you for taking a little
seed... Some of these areas I have personally fought to have set aside,
and I will personally hate you, too, if you use this information to
exploit them by digging plants." In that article, and with that caveat,
he takes the reader on a trip from Oregon in the north, west to Eureka,
east to Bristlecone Pines Preserve, and south to Mount Pinos, to find
Vll
those wildf lower haunts. Lucky the Bulletin reader who can take off and
go. "I have left out so many good places that some people will think
there is something wrong with me...
fashion.
he concludes, in characteristic
Wayne Roderick's knowledge of the propagation of native plants with
bulbs , tubers , corms , rhizomes , and rootstocks is probably close to
total. He has published on the subject [appended]. His contribution to
the Inventory of California Natural Areas and the Inventory of Rare and
Endangered Plants in California, and his work, soon to be published, on
the horticultural value of native plants, is a rare combination of the
scholarly and voluntary, born of field experience. Designated by one of
his editors, "Ambassador of western petaloid monocots," he is also the
guy in the garden next door.
Our inclusion of Wayne Roderick in this series of interviews serves
in part to help define the series. To read about his relatively un-
academic approach to horticulture, and to realize his abundant native
abilities, will be instructive to others in this field which has so much
room in it, and so much to offer to everyone, in theory from the five-
year old that Wayne was, to the re-entry gardener in pursuit of what has
become a most popular and satisfying, if not trendy interest, to plant
pathologists , botanists, photographers- -all manner of amateurs and
professionals .
As I have indicated, Wayne was an open and interested interviewee,
and his editing of the interview was swift and efficient. His choice of
Walter Knight to introduce the interview was inspired. We asked Adele
and Lewis Lawyer to proof-read the oral history, and it is their captions
in colloquial Latin that we have included in illustrating young Wayne.
Wayne Roderick's oral history is the third volume completed in the
California Horticulture Oral History series. The series is a part of the
larger group of interviews conducted by the Regional Oral History Office
of The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley on
horticulture, botany, and landscape architecture. The oral history
office is headed by Willa K. Baum and is under the administrative
supervision of the director of The Bancroft Library.
Suzanne B. Riess, Senior Editor
Regional Oral History Office
Berkeley California
May 25, 1991
Roderick
Regional Oral History Office
Room 486 The Bancroft Library
Vlll
University of California
Berkeley, California 94720
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
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Occupation
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Wayne Roderick
166 Canon Dr,
Orinda., CA 94563
Born in the same home where father was born, in Petaluma Calif, and into
a plant happy family.
Had first plot of ground before I was 5 yrs. old.
Was into Orchids as well as succulents by age 14.
First rock garden by age 16.
Had my own strain of asters, Af. marigolds, and polyanthus pnLnroses
by age 18.
We started a nursery in 1945 and closed out in 1959 after the death of
ray father.
Went to work at Univ. of Calif., Berkeley, Bot. Garden as head of the
Calif, section and lecturer. 1960-1976
Director of Regional Parks Bot. Garden from 1976-1983
Retired in 1983. (as I say I am now retarded)
I have specialized in our Calif, native bulbs and rock garden pants as
well as bulbs from other lands. I have introduced several plants
into horticulture. I have two plants named in my honor. I have
done much in conservation for seme the most interesting botanical
areas that I made known.
I have done extensive traveling studying plants from the artic to the
topics: not less than 12 times to Europe; I have been in Central
Asia, China, S. Africa to mention a few.
I am an honorary member of Herb Soc. of America.
Life member Alpine Garden Soc. (England), Calif. Horticulture Soc.,
and Calif. Native Plant Soc. (and a charter member).
Meriber of Amer. Rock Garden Soc,, Pacific Hort. Foundation, and
a Fellow of the Royal Hort. Soc.
Awecrds:
Man of the Year Univ. of Calif., Berkeley. Cal974
11 " Calif. Garden Clubs, Inc. 1977
LePiniec Award Amer. Rock Garden Soc. Ca. 1980
Rixford " Calif, Hort. Soc, Ca. 1965
Annual " " " " 1983
Riess :
Roderick:
I FAMILY AND EARLY YEARS, 1920-1945
[Interview 1: April 30, 1990 ]//#1
Family Origins
Tell me about your beginnings.
The first thing I can say, I was born in the same house that my
father was born in, in Petaluma.
Riess: How did your parents get to Petaluma?
Roderick: My father's father came in the Gold Rush. He was a Portuguese,
and he was from the Azores, born and raised there. The name
then, I think, was Joseph Rodriguez e Catano , changed to
Roderick when he became a citizen in Tuolumne County in the late
1860s. My father's mother's name was Flora. I remember on the
ranch they had an old building where a lot of things were
stored. Before it was burnt, and I was just a small kid, I
found this trunk with a lot of his papers. I saw his
citizenship papers, and he had his citizenship papers when
Tuolumne City was still the county seat, before it went to
Sonora.
Somewhere around 1868, 1869, somewhere around there, as
near as I know, he moved to Petaluma. At that time Petaluma was
to be just a little village, head of water transportation. The
great city was going to be Bloomfield. The population of
Bloomfield is still about twenty. He bought whole big blocks
out there, too. He had the stage between Petaluma, the head of
the water transportation, out to Bloomfield. But Petaluma grew,
and he bought some acreage out on the edge of town and finally
settled there.
1This symbol (////) indicates that a tape or segment of a tape has begun
or ended. For a guide to the tapes see page 142.
Riess: This is your father's father?
Roderick: Yes. And he became the court interpreter.
Riess: Interpreter? For the Spanish- speaking people?
Roderick: Spanish, the Italian, French, and Portuguese. And something
tells me, and I don't know yet where I got this idea, German.
The pictures we have, he always wore a Homburg hat, always had a
tie on, and had a big white flowing beard. He died about five
years before I was born.
My father's mother died shortly after he was born. My
father [Frank S. Roderick] was number twelve in the family, and
the older girls raised him. Again, that's all the information I
know because almost all of those died before I was born.
Riess: And when were you born?
Roderick: April 2, 1920. As they always said, I was born a day late. My
mother's side of the family, we have records back to the 1660s
in New Jersey. I have information from the Revolutionary War,
where this one ancestor was a captain in the Revolution and the
first governor of Kentucky, and lots of fantastic, interesting
information from there on.
Riess: Why did the family come to California?
Roderick: My grandmother on my mother's side [Mary F. Conley]--her husband
[Christifer Albush] died, and she remarried [William Davis] .
She had heart problems, and in those years, you went from a high
elevation to a low elevation. My grandmother and her first
husband were married in Kansas and moved to Colorado and bought
a property way out at the edge of the country. They had a
garrison of soldiers to keep the Indians down. Then when my
grandmother got ill they moved to California and lived two or
three places here. I can't tell you any more than that.
She had leased the ranch out back there, and finally the
family of relatives who were back there wrote saying that the
tenants had made such a horrible mess of the ranch, they better
get back. So, she moved her seven kids into the tenant's house
on her property. They had to get a male teacher that could beat
up on at least three of the Jack Derapsey family, because it was
the Jack Dempsey family that rented ray grandmother's ranch, or
leased it. When you read of the Dempseys in Colorado, it was on
my grandmother's ranch.
Finally she got rid of them. She sold the ranch and came
back to California. Again, they moved around, and finally they
settled up in Eureka. My father got in a fight with his father
and moved to Eureka, and that's where my mother and father were
married. Then they moved, and about that time my grandfather
had a stroke, and they moved back to Petaluma.
Riess: It sounds like your mother comes from a family of strong women.
Roderick: Yes, very strong.
Riess: And she was a strong woman herself?
Roderick: Extremely so. Very opinionated. Extremely so. She was
absolutely crazy over plants.
Riess: Are you a first child?
Roderick: No. I was the second one. My sister's a little older than I
am- -two and a half years. Her name is Lavelle Marie Donovan.
A Petaluma Chicken Ranch in the 1930s
Riess: What was your father's business when he came back down?
Roderick: They had chickens. My grandfather had one of the first
hatcheries in Petaluma. I can remember the old incubators still
stored in this building where they had the hatchery. Why they
stopped, I have no idea.
Riess: There's an oral history in our office with the Jewish chicken
raising families in Petaluma. Apparently, there was a large
group .
Roderick: I remember when they came in, and immediately a lot of the
credit was stopped. It was what we always referred to as the
Russian Jews. Now, there were other ones. There was a Mrs.
Hayes who lived close to us, and we absolutely- -we didn't care
much for her husband, but she was an absolute doll.
Riess: But these were Russian Jews? That you do remember.
Roderick: That's what we referred to them as.
I remember when my father- -let' s see, that was about 1935
or so- -had financial troubles, family financial troubles. He
was semi- in business with them. It came to around, I think it
was thirty thousand all total. My uncle owed thirty thousand
dollars worth of checks, and there was no money.
My mother had put a lot of checks in the mail. Well, my
father hauled chicken manure from Petaluma to Salinas and
Watsonville for the lettuce fields and all those crops. And it
was big, lots of money in that. When she told the fellow who
owned the bank—he was a family friend- -she said, "This is
what's happened." He said, "We'll cover the checks." Never
signed one paper. All those checks that my mother had mailed to
the farmers were all covered. My mother was able to get enough
money to cover all of them, and they came back. I think there
was something like a fifteen cent charge for doing all that.
Very shortly after that, all of a sudden no more credit.
Riess: And how do you account for the end of the credit?
Roderick: This is where I have to be vague because I don't know. The
Jewish people come in- -this one type --and they would run up big
bills, and they'd go bankrupt. From then on, all bills had to
be paid and paid on time.
But your father was one of the early- -
Chicken raisers, he and his brother. His brother died when I
was, oh, probably five or six years old. He kept on to just
about the time of the Depression. Then, he was buying this
chicken manure, sending it to Salinas and Watsonville, and my
mother's baby sister's husband was selling it.
He got into Chinese gambling and drinking.
Riess: The uncle down there?
Roderick: Yes. And he had these hand cards all made up of Runge and
Roderick. My father had all kinds of credit, but he had none.
He was buying commercial fertilizers, the chemicals, and
charging it all to my father. This would have to be about '33,
'34, in the middle of the Depression. Fifty thousand dollars
was a lot of money in those years.
Riess: Yes. What was the other name?
Roderick: Runge.
Riess: That's your mother's family name?
Roderick: No. It's her sister's husband. Her family was Albush.
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess: A hatchery just means that all you do is get the eggs and--?
Roderick: And hatch them. They undoubtedly sold a lot, and then they
raised a lot. Around, I'd say, the 1920s, it was considered one
of the largest chicken ranches at that time because it was all
hand work. They got more mechanized before my father gave up
raising chickens. I think then we were a very small outfit.
Riess: Did they candle the eggs?
Roderick: I do remember once seeing candling, but it was more the weighing
of and packing the eggs into great big boxes. You still in the
stores get these squares that hold, I'd say, about three dozen
eggs- -something that way. They had boxes made that were two
stacks. I imagine that they were about eight to ten stacks high
on each one of these sections. I remember when I was a small
kid I used to have to do that, help pack eggs.
Riess: How big was this operation?
Roderick: They had about twenty thousand chickens. Nowadays it would be
considered just a drop in the bucket, you know, because it all
is mechanized.
Riess: What is your memory of the sounds and smells and so on of all
that?
Roderick: My mother tells when I was a tiny kid she could set me out there
in the brooder houses where the chicks were raised, and I'd just
play with the chicks. They'd be all over me, and they'd come to
me. My sister would go out there and they'd all run. She said
I just had a natural feeling for- -in fact, I had all kinds of
pets as I grew up. I had more fun playing with those little
baby chicks when I was a baby myself.
They used chopped alfalfa, which has a beautiful fragrance,
for the litter for the chicks to run on. I can still see the
persons cleaning the houses. It seemed like they did it every
day- -I don't know how often. But if it wasn't cleaned it got to
smelling terrible. The other thing was the diseases that we'd
get right away if the house was not kept very clean.
Riess: Did your mother have a role in the actual management?
Roderick: She did most of the raising of the chicks, and then my father
and uncle- -my father's brother — and I think most of the time
they had another person. My sister and I even gathered the
eggs. We never liked that because the chicken houses got to
smelling heavily very quickly, you know.
Riess: The chickens are very possessive about their eggs, $00, some of
them.
Roderick: Sometimes, yes. Being that they were gathered every day, the
chickens never really got a chance to try to set.
Riess: You said that it was the same home where your father was born,
but your father had left and come back?
Roderick: Yes. My mother was sixteen and he was twenty-six when they were
married. Then I came along four years later. It probably was
three years before I can remember what exactly my father was
like. He was gray and bald-headed. He lost his hair very, very
early.
Riess: And your mother was very young.
Roderick: My mother was very young, and she kept her hair till the day she
died. So, I feel pretty good. I've still got a little bit of
hair on top.
Riess: You've got a fine crop!
Roderick: Yes, I've got a fine crop compared to my father, but nothing
compared to my mother.
A "Plant -Happy" Family
Riess: You've described your family as plant -happy. Why?
Roderick: My mother, I guess, was born that way. My father loved farming.
He loved it. Well, he had fancy cows as a hobby after he got
rid of the chickens. And he raised a lot of vegetables and
things to feed the cows. Our vegetable garden was more cut
flowers than it was vegetables. Then we had about an acre
around the house that my mother gardened. My father always
wanted everything in rows so he could get in with the horses and
cultivate. My mother, of course, wanted beauty, so she had
anything but rows.
Riess: Did she order from seed catalogues?
Roderick: She got a lot of stuff that way, went to the nurseries.
I remember the Depression years. My father loved plants,
but he would not let my mother have the veronicas. He didn't
like them.
Riess: That's that big bushy- -
Roderick: It gets about three foot tall, the kind that my mother liked. I
remember she went out the back door one day, and here she picked
up a silver dollar. She jumped in the car and went to the
nursery and bought two gallon-can veronicas, one red one and one
blue one, much to my father's disgust.
I can also remember about the same time going down to
Oakland. Between Richmond, where you got off the ferry, and
Oakland, there were a lot of little nurseries. This one
Japanese had a dwarf flowering crabapple bonsai, and he [father]
loved that thing. The fellow had propagated two plants. He had
them in square five-gallon cans. It took him [nurseryman] about
three years before he would sell him one — and he sold it for
fifteen dollars , which would be about two hundred and fifty
dollars nowadays. Instantly, my father bought it. Money was no
object if it was a good plant, [laughs] He wanted things in
rows , and yet he loved the landscaped area of the garden that my
mother had.
Riess: Was the land flat?
Roderick: It was slightly sloping ground. It was west of Petaluma where
they had that sand, low sand. It was very shallow. It was only
about fifteen, eighteen inches of soil over an impervious hard
pan. We were about halfway down this gentle hill, and all the
rainwater had to drain through that sandy area. Flowering
cherry trees, which they bought dozens of, fruit trees --only
plums and apples could stand that amount of water in the
wintertime, peaches and apricots and the cherries all drowned.
Riess: He really knew the land and knew what was going on, and you
became part of all of that.
Roderick: I had my first plot of ground by the time I was five years old.
My mother said that's how they got a lot of weeds in the garden.
I had to grow them on to see what they were going to turn out to
be.
Riess: You mean from seeds?
Roderick: Yes, or anything I found that had a leaf that was a little bit
different. I'd dig it up and put it in my little plot of
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
ground. I don't think it was more than about five by ten foot
at the biggest.
That's early to be so intrigued. How do you account for it?
I just took after my parents, I think. My mother said that from
the time she was small, that's all she could remember was seeing
plants and growing them. When they first moved to California
that next spring on this piece of property my grandmother had,
which was somewhere in the Placerville area, up came all kinds
of narcissus and things like this, bulbs, and my mother just
about went out of her mind.
I think of Petaluma as being really out of reach of the Bay
Area. How often would you have gotten on the ferry and come
down and gone to nurseries?
My father and mother used to go quite often down to the Salinas -
Watsonville area, probably once a month, maybe only three times
a year. I don't quite remember that. They couldn't work in the
wintertime hauling the manure because the sandy soil, which was
perfect for the chickens, would get so soft they couldn't get
the trucks in.
My father had gotten a crew of men that he liked and could
trust and everything. So he did all kinds of other things with
the trucks in the wintertime, one of which was cut Christmas
trees in November as the rain started and haul those to San
Francisco, or really to Petaluma, and then people from San
Francisco would buy half a truckload or whatever they wanted.
After that, in January, he found out there was a good
market for old cars. So he put the men to junking. In those
days it was down in Emeryville where they took all that stuff
and sold it.
I used to see those scrap iron heaps in Emeryville.
know whether they are still there.
I don't
When he was hauling manure he used trucks, not barges?
No, no. It was trucks early on. They then hauled it down to
the railroad tracks and filled these what we called gondolas,
and shipped that to Salinas -Watsonville . It was unloaded there
and spread. My uncle -in- law was the one that knew all about
getting it unloaded and spread around. It was a big operation.
So that's why they were down in the Bay Area that often, and
your mother would come along and shop?
Roderick: Oh, he couldn't go without my mother because she was so plant-
happy. We had a lot of unusual choice things in the garden.
Japanese Nurseries and the War
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick;
Did you go to the Japanese nurseries in particular because of
what they offered?
It was more along San Pablo Avenue -- that ' s when it was the only
way you could get down to Oakland- -almost all those nurseries in
through there were Japanese. A few Italians, but the Italians
carried more the ordinary things . The one thing I kept
remembering was the long, tall yew trees, and conifers, the
dwarf ones . The Japanese had the more unusual things . I can
remember ten, fifteen nurseries along San Pablo Avenue.
Was [Toichi] Domoto's nursery there?
I didn't know about him till after the war. No, I'll take that
back. When I started to go to junior college up in Santa Rosa I
worked part time in a nursery. It was just before the war, so I
only got part of one semester in when war come along. I started
work at the nursery just after I got out of high school. Twice
the owner went to Domoto's nursery. That was before the war.
Then after the war we started the nursery, and then, of course,
I used to go down there quite often. I got to know Toichi
Domoto very well. He's a good friend—rarely seen. He's so old
now, he doesn't get around very much.
When you talk about unusual things, you're talking about the
camellias and the cherries? And persimmons- -had they started
bringing in Oriental persimmons?
We didn't get persimmons until much later, after we started a
nursery. We knew about them, and we knew we liked them. I
can't tell you--. I do remember at Toichi Domoto's that he had
two or three very interesting persimmons there, but I never had
one. We didn't grow them. You can see right out my window
there I've got a nice big persimmon tree.
Riess:
It's a beautiful one.
the nice greens .
It's so lush in spring, too. It's one of
10
Roderick: Oh, what a display it is in the fall. It's the soft one, and
the foliage does not turn very beautiful, but oh, what a sight
with the fruits on it.
Riess: It's sad to think about all of those nurseries, come wartime.
Roderick: Yes, and ray father, when the war came along, he couldn't get
trucks, and all of his good men were gone. He couldn't trust
men. He and my brother-in-law then bought a poultry commission
house.
Riess: What does that mean?
Roderick: It means that they bought the farmer's chickens and sold them to
the markets in San Francisco. Never kept a chicken overnight.
Riess: They were brokers?
Roderick: Brokers, yes. Most of his customers, both in the manure and
with the chickens, were Japanese. They knew how my father
dealt, that his word was always perfect and he never went back
on that, and the Japanese liked this. He knew the ways that
they liked to do business, and their humor and all this, and
they did everything they could to do a deal with my father.
So, he knew the Japanese people very well. In fact, at
the time of Pearl Harbor we were interviewed for one whole half
day by the F.B.I, on what our ideas were about all of our
Japanese people, and there were only two persons that we didn't
like. They found out that one of these families- -there was
something very funny about them. They went to a concentration
camp. That was great. But all the rest, we fought for them.
Riess: Your family was interviewed up in Petaluma?
Roderick: Well, in Santa Rosa, which was the county seat.
One of this family that—we really didn't know them at all,
but they were just funny people. Even the Japanese called them
"damn Japs." I heard that expression.
Riess: This was before the plans had been made for the camps?
Roderick: Yes. This was immediately after Pearl Harbor. I'd say within a
week. It was not that important except that we were very much
interviewed.
Riess: Did your father in any way take over any of the nurseries or
help any of the Japanese?
11
Roderick: No. We didn't do anything that way.
Riess: When these people you knew were going to the camps, were they
close enough to your family to turn possessions over to your
family?
Roderick: We know about the people that took over a lot of these ranches,
but there was nothing much that we did.
At the same time I was drafted, and almost every one of the
men my father had working for him were drafted. He had to get
rid of all of his trucks and try to see what else he wanted to
get into. He found this poultry commission house, and he went
to work there --again I'll have to be vague- -for a very short
time. The old gentleman that owned it didn't know how he was
going to work, and my father and brother-in-law then bought him
out and took over.
Riess: Got a fine entrepreneurial gene in your family.
Roderick: We got into all kinds of stuff!
From Weeds to Orchids
Riess: Now, let's just step back a bit. You said on your vita that you
were into orchids, as well as succulents, by age fourteen.
First you had had your plot of ground where you were raising and
examining the weeds .
Roderick: Then by this time I was, oh, I'd say eight years old. I was out
of the little patch of weeds. I was expected to help in the
garden.
My father- -everything had to be very good. He had fancy
cows. The best one was the world's third highest butterfat
producer at the time. Of course, all kinds of records had to be
kept on this. I liked that cow because I could ride her, she
wouldn't buck me off.
But before I was eligible or big enough for milking cows
and things that way, I worked in the garden. We got up at five
every day when the cows had to be milked. I went off with my
mother and helped weed and water until seven. By this time my
sister would be working in the kitchen. (She turned out to be a
very good housewife—very lovely home.) At seven we'd come in
12
and have breakfast, get ready to go to school. When I got, I'd
say, about thirteen, fourteen, then I went out and helped ray
father with the cows.
Riess: This was not an unusual life in Petaluma, where maybe the rest
of your classmates started their days with a certain amount of
farm work too?
Roderick: Yes. It was more a farming community. But in the town of
Petaluma we had a lot of well-to-do people. Some of those were
friends, but we never chummed when I was in school. Before I
went to high school, which was in the town of Petaluma, I went
to the grammar school my father went to in the country.
Riess: You were in school with kids who had the same experiences.
Roderick: We had some of the George P. McNear family in there, and they
had a little clique that stayed together.
Riess: Which clique is that? Is that the farming clique or the town
clique?
Roderick: It was the wealthy clique. You have a little bit of this at all
schools, I imagine.
Riess: How about the Kortums? Did you know the Kortums?
Roderick: Yes. One Kortum was over at the Maritime Museum.
Riess: Yes, Karl Kortum. And, Bill Kortum was--
Roderick: --a veterinarian. And their sister, she's the one I really
know. She lives in Santa Rosa.
Riess: They were farming, weren't they?
Roderick: Yes. They were more dairy. I can't quite remember much more
than that. I know where the house is. I think it's still
standing. [Being remodelled, September 1990. W.R. ]
Riess: So, that was your typical day. I interrupted you. You were
saying that by the time you were fourteen- -
Roderick: I had started cactus and succulents as a kid. I'd say I was
about six, seven, eight when I did that. In fact, my father
built a tiny hothouse. And I saw these ads in the old, old
Sunset Magazine for orchids, quite an article on them in several
Riess :
Riess:
13
places. Come the Oakland Garden Show, I got my mother to bring
me down. There was a full carload of us , I remember. We
stopped at this one nursery that sold orchids, and I bought my
first orchid plants. I think I was about fourteen.
And that nursery- -they were displaying at the Oakland Garden
Show?
Roderick: No. They didn't, I don't think, have anything at the Oakland
Garden Show. We came to see the Oakland Garden Show, and I
rushed the family through the show as quick as possible.
So you could go shopping.
Roderick: So we'd go shopping, which was perfectly all right. I had saved
my money, and I spent it.
The Oakland Spring Garden Show
Riess: That garden show is very famous.
Roderick: Yes. Howard Gilkey made it, that show. Howard Gilkey was a
real character. He'd even tell you how great Howard Gilkey was!
I've seen some of his gardens that he landscaped. They were all
right; they weren't great, but they were all right.
But what he did in that building for the show was
unbelievable. He built these great big giant redwoods, about
ten feet in diameter. They went up to the ceiling in that
building. Then he put limbs--. How the devil he did it--.
Riess: You mean he built them with bark and--?
Roderick: Yes. They were all hollow inside. It was just the bark.
Someplace in the building would be waterfalls to get
humidity to keep the plants growing, to keep them at their
prime .
Riess: What was the building that he was in?
Roderick: The building down somewhere near where the Oakland Museum is.
Right beyond there was a big auditorium.
Riess: The auditorium that's still there?
14
Roderick: I guess. A big, flat floor. He'd get these nurseries to either
force or hold back rhododendrons- -great specimens of them with
masses of buds- -and have just one big splash of color throughout
that building. It was an impossible garden thing, you know, for
doing in your garden, but it was absolutely beyond belief to see
all these big masses and masses of color. Masses of them.
Nothing at all to have a six- inch pot of hydrangeas, maybe
all pink. There would maybe be two hundred pots of those in
that one splash of color. Then there would be the
rhododendrons, and some of those would be six, eight foot tall.
Big swaths of these, all maybe 'pink pearl,' all pink ones,
maybe ten of those. That would fill my whole house, you know!
It was just beyond belief, the spectacular colors that he did!
Riess: Do you think that that was a greater day for gardens than it is
today?
Roderick: No. I think now you've got more people gardening for the one
reason that so many places, like here in Orinda, you're supposed
to keep your place looking like something. (They don't plant
very nice things.) And the freeways now have gotten lots of
plants planted out around interchanges to make it look nice. I
think people are doing more here than they did in those days.
Riess: You mentioned Sunset. I wondered how much you would hook up
that kind of consciousness of gardens with Sunset' s impact.
Roderick: In the olden days Sunset Magazine was far superior to what it is
today. The main part mostly was on gardening. Today you open
up the main part, and it could be on houses, it could be on
anything. In those days I could open that main, first part- -it
was on plants. Houses and things that way were farther in the
back, and then cooking and things like that were in the end.
But the first part used to be mostly gardening. I think this
helped to get us to be as good gardeners as you're seeing.
Earlv Attempts at Rock Gardens . Native Gardens
Riess: What if the orientation of all of this had been to working with
the native plants. What a different landscape we'd all have!
Was there any kind of appreciation for native grasses and shrubs
then at all?
Roderick: I can remember, I'd say, about 1932 my mother and one of her
best friends went in for a rock garden. It wasn't very much of
15
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick:
a rock garden. It was a shady place in both Mrs. King's and my
mother's place. They went in for ferns and all the little shady
plants. They went out and collected in the wild. They had the
first little bits of native gardens that I can ever remember.
For some unknown reason our natives have not made as much
hit until here just recently as they have in Europe. They will
do anything there to grow our California natives.
I've read that they were collecting and hybridizing in the early
nineteenth century.
Within the first five years of our California poppy in
cultivation, they already had three different colors. They got
these color breaks.
Here in the East Bay you'll find more people planting
California natives than almost anyplace else in this state.
And it's happening now, rather than 1932 or whatever.
Yes. These few years of drought that we've had, there's more
and more. And then we have one real good landscape architect
that's planning drought -tolerant gardens. There's a couple of
others that's doing fair, but Ron Lutsko is probably the best in
this. He's a young fellow. I know last week he was gone. He
had several estates that he was planting down around the San
Jose to Carmel area. Last year he was commuting to Los Angeles
because of a big professional building of some kind that was all
being done in natives or drought- tolerant plants.
But the dream garden of Howard Gilkey would be a damp and floral
place .
For that one week it was spectacular. I've seen a couple of the
places — they haven't been kept up- -such as the city park in
Oakland. Yes, it was spectacular. The walls, the way they were
built, and the design that was used. But it was just something
like one of these big estates that makes a big show and that's
it.
Mother' s Blue Ribbon Garden in Petaluma
Riess: When you came down with your parents on those trips to Salinas -
Watsonville and stopping at the nurseries and so on, were there
famous gardens to go and visit?
16
Roderick: Not that I ever remember my parents ever doing that. No, I
don't remember that. I remember going to San Francisco once in
awhile. Then we'd make a drive through Golden Gate Park. But we
didn't do much in those days. We had in Petaluma the garden
clubs .
I know by 1935 I was the youngest member of the Petaluma
Garden Club. I know I was into that. And they had these great
flower shows. We had judges come from all over for the flower
shows. I know I couldn't have been more than fifteen and into
the first flower show. My mother, of course, showed all kinds
of stuff. Piles and piles of blue ribbons.
Riess: Very competitive?
Roderick: Oh, yes.
My mother started out with about three things, annuals, and
worked up some very good forms. I went and hand-pollinated and
it got so we had our own strains of China asters and African
marigolds- -and what was the other thing? Something else,
annual, that went into the vegetable garden, and we rogued and
hand- pollinated.
Riess: How did you know how to do that- -the hand-pollinating?
Roderick: Looked at it and did it.
Riess: I mean, had you been around nursery people and seen how breeding
and hybridizing was done?
Roderick: No. It just came natural, I think.
Riess: And you hadn't gotten out a book from the library or anything
like that?
Roderick: I remember getting chicken feathers to use--. I'd pull them out
of the wings of the chicken—or tail feathers, stripped down to
little things. Finally, my folks did get camel hair brushes,
but first I used chicken feathers- -just the tips of chicken
feathers .
Riess: Had your mother been doing it before you?
Roderick: I don't remember. I know she was selecting. She grew up almost
all of her own annuals. We had a hotbed. In the winter all the
soil was taken out and cow manure was put down almost six inches
on the bottom, and then about six inches of the soil above that.
17
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick:
This was a raised bed. It was facing south with the windows on
top to keep the rain out, keep the warmth in.
She would plant her seeds, I would say, early March so they
would be big enough by mid-April to plant out. She raised the
annuals by the tens of thousands. Some of this in the very
beginning was kale for feeding the chickens, but she raised
hundreds and hundreds of annuals and had these big beds.
Nothing at all to plant a hundred to a hundred and fifty, say,
African marigolds in one bed, and a big row or two out through
the vegetable garden.
You said that she didn't want things in rows.
her garden each year?
Did she design
Yes. She had these big, long swoops, and we had moss lawns, or
really this Irish moss or Scotch moss- -it's a little flowering
plant that looks like moss. And walks, one big main walk so she
could run a wheelbarrow up and down without crushing the lawns.
She would start all the beds with one type of a border,
generally ageratum or lobelia or something that way, according
to what all colors that she was going to put in.
Then with the African marigolds she'd probably buy seed and
grow that on. She'd have a French marigold, probably a bronze
color, then the African marigolds behind that. If it was, say,
the asters, she would probably put more of a blue that would
combine with the other colors there.
She generally had in the spring lots of stocks and
snapdragons. In one big bed she had a big white flowering
peach. She built the bed up high enough that it would survive.
She had pink tulips underneath that that would come up every
year. And then maybe lavender stocks. Then she had thousands
and thousands of daffodils, old-fashioned daffodils.
She planted Linaria seed in with the daffodils and it came
into bloom after the daffodils were finished blooming, and by
the time it was finished blooming, then she'd pull out the tops
of the daffodils and the Linaria all at once and then put in her
border of summer annuals. Of course, I was expected to do my
share of that.
[laughs] That's pretty relentless.
Yes. It was a full-time job. Her garden was almost as bad as
Ruth Bancroft over here in Walnut Creek. My mother was her main
gardener, just as Ruth is.
18
Riess: How did your succulents do in your glass house?
Roderick: They did poor. We found out that they did better outside, but
we did raise a few other things that were tender. % even had a
couple hibiscus plants planted in the ground. But the roof was
only seven feet, and in a hothouse you should have at least ten
foot to get air circulation. Plus, we had to chop it out
because it was pushing the glass out. We had just a little
electric heater which did not give any good heat for keeping the
orchids.
Then my father started to build a big hothouse. We made it
big enough- -I think it was sixty foot long, and it must have
been twenty foot wide — and about this time is when we decided to
start a nursery. That came right after the war.
I was discharged early because I got tuberculosis. I came
home, and I stayed in a tent just outside the house for, I
guess, a year and a half. (They never did find spots on my
lungs.) Of course, we had all the milk, cream, vegetables,
fruits, a lot of fruits. In those days my mother used to can a
lot of these things, so there was all kinds of good food. My
father always raised his own meat. He rented a big freezing
place not too far from my home, and he'd put a whole beef in
there, and maybe a pig, and two or three lambs.
Riess: That's really a wonderful land-of -plenty story!
Roderick: Boy, we lived high on the hog. In fact, during the war years we
planted very few annuals in the vegetable garden. But my
mother's one or two sisters, my grandmother- -and my sister by
this time was married and had a boy- -they all worked in the
vegetable garden. They all canned, especially at my mother's
house. They would can two or three hundred quarts of each
thing.
Riess: Sounds like this was for more than their own use.
Roderick: This was for their own use. We lived all winter and the rest of
the year on that. I'd say that garden was a good quarter acre.
That beautiful sand and, of course, we had all our own water.
19
War Experience. Garden Experience
Riess: What was your war experience?
Roderick: I was drafted immediately after Pearl Harbor. My mother always
said that when she became a grandmother she was going to get a
motorcycle and raise hell. Well, Pearl Harbor come along. A
few days later she become a grandmother, and a couple of days
after that I was drafted. She grew up very rapidly.
I was taken to Camp Roberts. Never finished my full
training there. Somehow I said I would be very good at
camouflage and things that way because I knew plants. Well,
they didn't have that, so I become an Army cook. That was very
good because I cooked already. In wintertime when we were kids,
when we couldn't get outside, my mother would have "cooking
day." It might be a roast beef, or it might be cookies, or it
could be how to prepare some interesting vegetables. So I got
to be an Army cook.
Riess: And you avoided the infantry, it sounds like.
Roderick: I was in the coast artillery. It was about the fifteenth,
somewhere around there, of December when I was drafted. I was
sent to Camp Roberts. They took me in the first part of January
and we were supposed to finish our training by, I think it was,
the first of April. But by mid-March I was on a troop transport
to Hawaii. I was in the first replacement after Pearl Harbor
over there, one of the first batches. I spent my time in Hawaii
as an Army cook up at Diamond Head.
Riess: What could be better?
Roderick: Yes, because on my days off I got into a lot of the estates.
Got so anytime I wanted to go in any of them that I'd go in the
employees' entrances, and I'd go anyplace. One fellow had a
whole garden of orchids.
Interestingly, one of the fellows that worked for ray father
wound up in Alaska in the Aleutian Islands, and he had an aunt
and uncle in Honolulu. I'd been there for quite a few months
before letters could get around to where everybody was. My
mother kept up with all these good employees that we lost during
•the war, where everybody was, what went on. Finally this fellow
wrote and said for me to go look up his aunt and uncle. It
turned out that he was head of the agricultural department of
the University of Hawaii. Boy, did that ever start opening up
places !
20
Riess: Places to go and visit?
Roderick: Yes. He was a fantastic person.
From there I got sick. They sent me back to Virginia.
Riess: How did you contract tuberculosis?
Roderick: I have no idea how I did that. I was sent back to Virginia and
seemed to be all right for awhile. Then again I got sick, and
they discharged me --got rid of me as quick and as easy as they
possibly could. They were trying to put me into a sanitarium,
but they couldn't find any lesions in my lungs. The social
worker that my mother was working with saw all of the stuff at
my mother's place, and she said if they would put up a place out
where I'd be in air all the time it would be the best place to
convalesce. Well, that's what they did.
By the time that I was finished with all of my examinations
and everything, we were building up more and more plant
material. My father then--.
Riess: What do you mean "your" examinations?
Roderick: First at Fort Miley, then finally up at Santa Rosa.
Riess: You mean your physical examinations?
Roderick: Yes.
My father was building up the plant material, and finally I
was able to do some work, and I went to work at the military
post out at Two Rock. It was called Two Rock Ranch. It was the
communications post where the Japanese code was broken.
Riess: This is where the R.C.A. installation is now?
Roderick: Now it's not R.C.A. It's something else- -maritime school or
something. I was a fireman there for a year and a half. Got
enough money to buy the first big block of plants. My father
was doing the building, so we kind of worked on all of it
together.
Riess: I have a look on my face that you'll come to know that means
that we can't go forward because we have to loop back to answer
a few questions that are on ray mind. You said that you had gone
to Santa Rosa Junior College. This was right after high school
you went there?
21
Roderick: Yes. I didn't go for a year. I guess I worked at this nursery
in Santa Rosa getting money together and such things as that.
Riess: Then when you were eighteen or nineteen or so, you went to
junior college. What did you study there?
Roderick: I studied under Dr. Milo Baker, who was the very famous
botanist, but I never quite finished.
Riess: Junior college was two years, but you didn't have time to finish
the two years?
Roderick: I didn't even finish really one semester. Pearl Harbor come
along. You could say I was a complete failure. Really, I got
enough information to know how to use a book. That was it.
Riess: How was your high school education in sciences? Was that
helpful?
Roderick: Yes. I took everything I could. There was only one thing I got
a D in, and that was chemistry. Very poor at such things as
chemistry.
Riess: Did they have Future Farmers of America?
Roderick: They had something of that, but I didn't go in for that because
I knew that I wanted to go more into botany and horticulture. I
didn't know for sure at that time what.
Riess: Did you want very much to have more of an education, or did you
not see that that was necessarily a prerequisite?
Roderick: I wanted to go on, but when I got thrown out of the Army it was
a heck of a job trying to get enough money, first to go to
school --at that time there was no such thing as the G.I. Bill
and it would have cost quite a little bit, and I couldn't really
work. And we had enough plants in the garden that we could
propagate, and I knew the wholesale nurseries from before the
war where I had worked, I knew who to contact and all this.
Being fireman out at this military post- -there was no real work
to that at all, except once in awhile just a little bit.
By the time that we got the nursery going, then these
different things for the veterans [G.I. Bill] came out, but we
already had the nursery going, and we had it for fifteen years
when my father died.
22
Learning Plants
Riess: Did you take correspondence courses by any chance, or anything
like that?
Roderick: No. But I had all the books that I could lay my hands on. I
spent all of my evenings in the books. I did my own education.
Riess: When you got entre to the gardens that you wanted to visit in
Hawaii, and when you went into those gardens, did you take
written notes? How did you approach those gardens?
Roderick: I didn't know in those years that you had to take notes. I was
always told that you remembered, or else you're not using your
brain.
Riess: You developed that capacity to remember?
Roderick: I did then, but I'm finding now that I have to write things down
or else.
Riess: You said when you started the nursery with your father you had
all the books you could lay your hands on. Did you at that
point decide that you had to learn things systematically, and
write out the flower families and so on, or did you just read it
and remember it?
Roderick: In fact, there's still a lot of the books right here in my
bookshelf.
Riess: What I'm wondering is whether because you were self-taught,
whether you learned flower families or learned systems and
taxonomies in a whole different way?
Roderick: Yes. In high school I didn't pay too much attention to plant
families. It's just what the plant was.
Riess: You mean common name?
Roderick: No, scientific names. Chinese houses were Chinese houses
because they were Chinese houses. It wasn't because they were
Collins ia, which belongs to the Scrophularia family. That
didn't mean anything at first. But when I started with the
nursery, then it become more important to know some of these
things. When I started to work for the University it was
imperative to know this.
23
Riess:
Roderick
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess :
The botanist I worked with for so many years was extremely
slow in trying to get these things, and I had to furnish class
material. And the person that was setting up the classes had
certain plant families and certain genera, class material, that
he had to have . This is where I really got my education the
correct way. The first way I learned was more from
horticulture, and then all of a sudden into botany.
How does that distinction work?
grows?
You know a plant by how it
That's the first way I learned how it grows. Then, what the
plant was: is it going to get the color I want? Is it going to
get the size I want? Will it grow on this kind of soil? Then
all of a sudden we got the nursery and I had to start playing it
from a botanical way, but not complete botanical. Still had to
know how it grew, but also what that correct name was and how it
belonged a little bit in botany. When I started working at the
University, then it went from horticulture more to botanical.
So, then I had to kind of reverse and figure out how they--.
How did you do that? Did you get out the books once again?
Sure. Put my nose in the books. I have a T.V. set now because
my mother had a stroke. I never had a T.V. set till she bought
the T.V. set two weeks before her stroke.
Your evenings were spent with your books.
Roderick: With my books. Now I have that darn idiot thing. I generally
watch just news.
1921 Roderickia waynii (seedling)
1940 R. petalumii var. youthii
R. youthii var. noseinbooksii
1970 R. plantsmanii var. bulbi
Californicae
generositae
international!!
hateyouii-
24
II NURSERY BUSINESS, 1945-1959
Hard Work: Propagating. Dealing With Customers. Staying Ahead##
Riess: Did your father defer to your knowledge when he put the nursery
together?
Roderick: I knew the plants. Of course, my mother worked in that--
couldn't keep her nose out either. She had to get into it. But
the only thing my father wanted was good plants.
Riess : You said there were a lot of nurseries up there in Petaluma?
Roderick: There was really only one other competitor in Petaluma at that
time , and then there were several others come in about the time
that we were closing out. Also, at the same time we closed out,
my father died, and then the chicken industry went to pot. We
were out in the country. We depended mostly on the farmers.
They couldn't afford to buy anything luxurious, which meant
plants .
We were doing extremely poor there the last six months
after my father died. I could see the writing on the wall, that
either I had to go head over heels in debt, buy a piece of
property in town or someplace, or- -I didn't like fighting with
the customers.
Riess: You had this business for fourteen years?
Roderick: Fifteen years.
Riess: Fifteen years. What was your role in the nursery?
Roderick: Running it, because my father had his business and all his
little things that he was doing, and I did the whole business of
tht thing.
Riess: So you did sales?
i
25
Roderick: Sales and propagation and trying to do landscaping—very low
amount of that because the nursery itself took too much time. I
used to propagate a lot of our camellias. I used to graft about
three to four thousand camellias every year. I tried
propagating rhododendrons and some of those things , but it was
too difficult, too much work for what you get out of it.
Riess: A lot of labor. Did you have assistants?
Roderick: No. Did most of it myself. The nursery was never kept quite up
to snuff because I didn't have the time. I could not get enough
fertilizer around. I could not keep the weeds down as good as I
wanted. It drove me crazy. That's what I hated about the whole
thing, plus certain persons that you had to fight with the whole
time.
Riess: Customers, you're talking about?
Roderick: Customers.
Riess: What kind of things did you have to fight with customers about?
Roderick: People that wanted to buy a good plant and then would not give
it the care, and then it was all my fault that the plant died.
Such things as that.
Riess: You got into installation then, also?
Roderick: A little bit, not too much. There was just so much--. We
covered so much space, we had so many plant materials in the
place that we just couldn't quite keep up. You have to keep the
hothouses going.
I found things that no other nursery was propagating, and
I'd go into that. I started to really get the fuschias going in
Petaluma because Victor Reiter is a close friend. I used to go
and get my new plants from him and propagate those . Then
everybody got into fuschias , so I got out of fuschias .
Then I started tuberous root begonias in pots, plus beds of
those for people to come and dig. That got too common, and then
we got a fungus disease in them that was too much work, so I got
out of that. I think I went into geraniums. And by this time
we had a lot of orchids, so we sold some cut flowers of our
orchids, and I'd divide the plants and sell some of those, too,
to get rid of some of that kind of stuff. Always had things
going all the time.
26
Fellow Nurserymen: Victor Reiter. Toichi Domoto
Riess: How had you built up this network? How did you know Victor
Reiter?
Roderick: He had a little nursery, which he was running in the red to cut
off his income tax. He still has the largest- -well , he's dead
now, but the family still has the largest private piece of
property, I think, in all of San Francisco.
Riess: Where is that?
Roderick: It's up on the side of Sutro Mountain, not too far from the U.C.
Hospital, on Stanyan Street- -1195 , I know that. Four and a half
acres, I think, of garden the nursery used to be. Now it's
mostly weeds and poison oak.
Victor Reiter was way up in the plant world. He was, I
guess you can say, the dean of the horticulturists for many,
many years. Lot of interesting stories I could tell about him,
too .
Riess: Did you belong to organizations in common?
Roderick: Yes. California Horticultural Society.
Riess: Was he one of your suppliers back in 1945?
Roderick: He would have been one of those, seeing that he probably started
about that time ten years earlier.
Carla Reiter and I were talking the other night, trying to
figure out how long it was that we'd known one another. I
bought their oldest daughter her first pair of shoes.
Riess: What was he your supplier for?
Roderick: He had fuschias and rock garden plants — all these kinds of
little things, choice things.
Riess: Who supplied really large plant materials, trees?
Roderick: In the olden days the first of the big ones was W.B. Clark,
which was down in San Jose. In fact I even knew W.B. before he
died, and he must have died about 1950. An old, old, old
nursery, and huge. Grew lots and lots of things that they dug
27
out every year, you know. They produced a lot of the modern
lilacs and a lot of the modern flowering quince. They did a lot
of hybridizing in those days. A lot of our good old shrubs are
from them.
Riess: When you sold them from your nursery, was that maybe the first
of such a plant up in Petaluma? Do you think your nursery had
that kind of role?
Roderick: Yes, we had a lot. In Berkeley is the Berkeley Horticultural
Nursery. Ken Doty's father had huge growing areas up in the
Portland area and he used to come and get cuttings and grafts
from my mother's garden. Then he would send, in exchange,
plants from his nursery in Berkeley [Berkeley Horticultural
Nursery] that were so few and so rare that we didn't even list
them.
Some of them, they were so rare that I wouldn't even sell
them. I'd give them to Victor Reiter, or maybe to Toichi
Domoto. They were too delicate for me to propagate, and I
didn't have the time to take care of them. You see, for Victor
money was no object, and Toichi had a big crew of people that
could take special care of some of these things.
Riess: I'm curious how that network works, that trading among
yourselves. You were just a kid then, compared to these people.
Roderick: Yes. A lot of them took me in. One thing I always said, "I'm
so stupid that I can't lie." If I don't know something, I tell
people so. If I don't believe that that's the correct way, I'll
say, "No, I do it this way." I'm trying to learn still, and if
you lie, people can feel this, and they're not going to tell
you.
Riess: You mean by lying, pretending that you know something when you
really don't know it?
Roderick: Yes. I think this is why I got on so well in England. I've
been told by a lot of my friends, "Oh, no. That garden's not
good enough for you to see" --these big, you know, two hundred-
acre gardens . [ laughs ]
Riess: Domoto also raised bonsai?
Roderick: You should have seen the bonsais before the war. Lots of those
were killed by complete neglect. That first time I was there
with Mr. Von Graf en from the nursery in Santa Rosa, Von Graf en
Nursery. It was one of the big, old nurseries, now the Flamingo
Hotel in Santa Rosa.
28
Some gentleman was there that was very elderly and dressed
about like what Victor Reiter dressed like in later years: old,
worn-out suit, and shoes that should have been thrown away.
Toichi had the family tree out there, this Hinoki cypress, the
most gorgeous thing. The container was about four or five feet
long by about three foot wide , the trunk about ten inches in
diameter, and the whole tree about six foot tall. The most
gorgeous thing.
This fellow was just coming to the car. Toichi was with
him. The guy was leaving, and Mr. Von Graf en got out and
introduced me. You could see there was something wrong with
Toichi. He was very upset. He said, "That man, I think he's
going to take my bonsai --my family tree. He offered me" --I've
forgotten what it was in those days it was fantastic, something
like $7,000. But there was also another one he knew about, and
if he could settle on that other one, then he wanted both of
them. Otherwise he didn't want either one. Toichi wouldn't
leave the office area. The guy said he was only a short ways
away, and he'd call within an hour's time.
Finally the fellow called, and he couldn't get the other
one, so he didn't want Toichi' s. You never saw such a relieved
person in your life. The second time, a few months later, that
I went down with Mr. Von Graf en, he [Domoto] had planted the
family tree out in front of the house. He couldn't sell it
then. [laughter]
Protecting Stock, in the Nursery and in the Wild
Riess: Does this frequently happen around nurseries, that you get a
splendid specimen that you're very reluctant to let just anyone
have?
Roderick: I had a telephone call Saturday morning from a big wholesale
nursery down in Watsonville by the name of Wintergreen- -one of
the top wholesale nurseries, small, but quality, quality. There
was a group- -the owner was gone and his salesman was there to
take the group around. These two women wanted only to buy his
stock plants. They got into a screaming mess there, that they
wanted to have those, or they were going to raise hell. He
told me, he said if he had been there he would have thrown the
women out.
29
We all have plants that you don't sell, especially your
stock plants. The way that Wintergreen works up their stock
plants, I can see why he would have really thrown the women out,
because he's propagating a lot of our wild shrubs.* He finds
cuttings of a plant he thinks is fine, brings them home, makes
his cuttings, soaks them in fungicides for a couple of hours,
puts his cuttings in for rooting, keeps working fungicide in
with them, pots them up, keeps up the fungicide. When those
plants get big enough to take cuttings off of them, again same
process over.
He does that four times before he ever takes one cutting to
think about selling. Working the fungus out of them. Then, he
never plants those in the ground at all. They're kept in
containers to keep them free from fungus , which means much
easier propagating. You work several years before you ever get
a plant that you can start to think about selling. You don't
want to get rid of those.
Riess: Those women shouldn't have been allowed to see them.
Roderick: I can remember once, way back when we first had the nursery, I
had a strain of polyanthus primroses that was almost as good as
Vetterle and Reinelt's. I was working on it, and I finally got
a double -flowered one. A poor, miserable color, but I knew it
was one that I could take and pollinate the flower and maybe
work up to double ones with good color. I had bragged about
this. I had a group of people through the garden. My mother
had—we still kept the acre garden up. She took people down and
showed them this. Went back a few days later to start
pollinating, and somebody had dug the plant. Lost the whole
thing.
Riess: That would be one reason you'd want to get out of the business.
Roderick: And one of the reasons why you don't really let anybody get
around your propagating stock.
Riess: Yes. The enthusiasm about plants, which you think is a shared
enthusiasm, that enthusiasm, I understand, also verges on mania.
Roderick: I took a group of the conservationists of the Native Plant
Society up to Siskiyou County up in the Siskiyou Mountains, and
all three species of our lady's slippers grow in that area.
They wanted to see the Cypripedium montanum. and I showed one
clump with about forty flowers on it- -miserable specimen; it was
a very poor flower form, but it was still a Cypripedium
montanum. I went back, and the plant was dug, gone. These were
30
conservationists! So, now with such things as that, I do not
show anybody or tell them where these things are.
Riess: It certainly is an issue. You had an article recently in the
Bulletin of the American Rock Garden Society [Vol. 48, No. 1] on
a wildf lower trip through California. You admonished people
just to observe. But what can you do? Can you trust them?
Roderick: Well, I have one thing I trust- -the Dutch bulb growers. They
want to have three bulbs of any one of our native plants that
they possibly can, and ten at the most. If they can't do
anything with that many, there's no sense in going on any
farther. I'm all for doing that, instead of seeing these
persons going out and digging like mad everything they can see.
In Holland they're just unbelievable, what they're doing with
some of our natives .
Riess: That's where they'll be propagated, back there?
Roderick: Several of our natives are going to be sold into horticulture
this year from this one grower that's so great.
Riess: And you will have been the conduit.
Roderick: Yes. I feel very proud about that, because I know how many
plants that a person's dug, and there was a couple of times
there where things were very plentiful and he got a little
greedy. He knew when I told him off, too.
Riess: [laughing] I have a feeling that this conversation has more
subtleties than I'm aware of.
What was the name you referred to earlier?
Reinelt?
Vetterle and
Roderick: One was French and the other one was Bohemian. They both had
little funny ways. Frank Reinelt was the last one of the group
They are the ones that produced the tuberous root begonia, the
polyanthus primroses that you still see on the market, and
delphiniums. I can't tell you too much about those.
I can remember my mother telling when she was first
married, or just before she was married, up in Eureka is where
the first tuberous root begonias were grown. Then it was sold
to Vetterle, I believe, and moved to Santa Cruz. Then they
worked and developed the tuberous root begonias there. Then I
think it was Reinelt that went on and developed the delphiniums
and the primroses to such perfection.
31
Finally, Frank Reinelt kept the nursery going just to keep
his employees so they could make a living, even if his health
was so bad that he desperately wanted to get out of there. But
to play he grew- -first it was succulents, hybridizing them, and
then finally he went to cactus, getting beautiful spine cactus
which have always miserable flowers, and poor spine ones that
have beautiful flowers, and hybridizing those. Then, he finally
died.
Sunset Western Garden Book- -An Opinion
Riess: For general knowledge about gardens and plant names and flower
names, so many people use the Sunset Western Garden Book.
Roderick: Everyone uses it, and there are still a lot of horrible
mistakes. I know who was the editor.
Riess: I wonder if you remember when that first came out, and whether
that was probably the first thing that people were able to lay
their hands on?
Roderick: I think it was the first popular thing for the complete amateur,
and it was very good. It had lots and lots of good ideas.
They did have lots of mistakes in it. The second issue--!
helped out on that- -they still put in mistakes that shouldn't
have got in there. This next one that came out still had some,
and the last time, which is the new one, they took my name out
because I raised so much hell with their books.
I used to get a lot of their new gardening books, and the
last one was on hanging containers. I started out, I think on
the cover, with red ink. There was hardly a page that I did not
red ink.
Riess: What's the nature of the mistakes?
Roderick: Well, I can't remember too much on that.
Riess: I mean, are these little details, or are these things that would
totally foil you if you were trying do it yourself?
Roderick: Some of the containers, on this one on hanging containers, would
hold two or three hundred pounds of soil for the size of the
container. Now, you don't hang those from a ceiling or hang
them on the limb of a tree.
32
But the one picture I raised so much hell about, and they
didn't take out, it shows a picture of this beautiful grand
piano in this alcove with three hanging containers over the
grand piano. Now, what would happen if one of those should
fall, or they got too much water. I thought that was absolutely
hideous bad taste. I raised hell about this. That last one
that I raised so much hell about, they gave me double pay and no
more books from then on. [laughter]
Riess: So, that's sort of a conceptual blooper. But in the Western
Garden Book do they get their botanical information wrong, or
what?
Roderick: It's been so many years now since I've done anything on that.
They said, for instance, Ceanothus * Julia Phelps' grew to
fifteen feet. Well, you know, I never see any over about seven,
eight feet. It's one of the smaller growers. You know, it
would be things like this here. And yes, it would take heavy
clay, but it won't grow anymore than something like that. I
can't remember enough, to be honest with you, but it had a lot
of mistakes, and if people would plant these things, and the
plant would hurry up and die, then the people would get
disgusted.
Working with Landscape Architects
Riess: You became aware of it as a nurseryman because you saw people
come in with this book as their authority, and they weren't able
to get the results that they expected?
Roderick: Well, I always tried to give instructions. Again, that was
another thing. We got landscape architects' drawings. We got
to know certain landscape architects, that if this is what you
want in the line of plants, you have got to have this, we don't
want nothing to do with this. You better take it someplace
else.
One of the worst ones of all was Tommy [Thomas Dolliver]
Church. Tommy Church did beautiful plans, but he didn't know
his plant material. I never met him. I saw quite a few of his
.plans. The last person I dealt with, I told [her] that was the
most horrible, hideous mess I had ever seen in my life. For the
plants right around your front door, you want something that's
going to look nice the year around. You can't believe the
33
Riess:
horrible plants that he put in there. They were going to look
horrible for six months out of the year.
Now Dewey Donnell, there at the head of Sonoma Valley- -
that's gorgeous. It's so simple a thing that you couldn't go
wrong, and the plant material blends in well. That's the only
place I've ever seen of Tommy Church's that is good.
Maybe that's because Halprin worked with him on that one.
That's done jointly.
Roderick: I don't know about that. But I think that's a beautiful garden.
This one lady that we were working with- -I can't remember
who the landscape architect was --she had a lot of shade. It was
an old, old estate, and her husband and her had just bought the
place, and she was having it done over. It was going to be
about two acres of garden. She told the landscape architect
that they needed lots of space for camellias because "I love
camellias. I want lots of shrubs, flowering shrubs, because" --
she was a ballet teacher and her husband was an attorney, in
fact he was the city attorney for Petaluma- - "we do lots of
entertaining, and I want lots of things I can cut to bring into
the house . "
She had all this shade, and he left her space for three
camellias! But at the nursery we had about fifteen, twenty
camellias that the family had been buying for her as gifts. The
shrubs that the fellow put in were pyracanthus , cotoneasters ,
and I can't remember what the other thing was. No heathers,
nothing that would give color in the wintertime, nothing that
would give color during the summer.
We suggested a lot of the low-maintenance perennials, not
drought -tolerant, but low-maintenance, like Shasta daisies--a
little bit of water and they'll work wonders. He didn't do
anything except cotoneasters and pyracanthus, and there was one
other shrub. I can't remember what the third one was.
Riess: That's cruel. As the business grew, and particularly post-war,
were you working with landscape architects or landscape
designers more? And did they become better- informed as the
years went by? How has that changed.
Roderick: I think with landscape architects it has not changed too much.
I think these landscape designers who have been gardeners and
then graduated, I think they know more than so many of the
landscape architects. Jonathan Plant is well- trained. Of
course, Ron Lutsko is tops. Ernest Wertheim, one of the old-
34
timers in San Francisco, knows his plant material,
quite a few like this around.
There's
But so many of the landscape architects know what the shape
of a plant is, the type of foliage, blending foliage together,
but they could care less if it's the right soils or what. They
don't know the difference. They have no idea. I know of one
landscape architect that is color blind. I've never seen such a
horrible mess as in some of his gardens.
Riess: In Petaluma, were you working with — you said you didn't know
Tommy Church up there?
Roderick: No. Very few of the landscape architects that I know--. The
couple that I did, I used to tell them off. [laughs] This one
fellow would ask, "What do you think of this?" I didn't see him
but once in a great while, but it was in my area, and if he
thought that the people were going to come to me he'd ask me.
And I'd tell him. He did—mostly they were smaller gardens, and
he did quite nice for them.
Most of the landscape architects do have a good eye for
design, but there's very few of them that know their plant
material well enough. I think there's something like two
hundred and fifty plants that they have to know to graduate out
of college. Ron Lutsko now is just finishing up his thesis for
his master's degree, so he can really teach now at UC. They
want him. They want him bad. But if he didn't have his
master's, the pay was so small that he didn't dare to take the
time. He loves teaching. He loves to get over to his students
the idea of decent plant material growing under good soil
conditions.
Garden Snobs and the Garden Conservancy////
Roderick: When Victor Reiter's father died, his mother inherited most of
the estate. Victor sold off the stocks and bonds that he
inherited to save the property that he inherited, and he still
had $600,000 left, he told me. Then he started to really work
in his stocks and bonds, and that's when he got out of the
nursery business. Each kid- -he had three children—each one
-when they were married was given a home as a wedding gift, and I
believe a million dollars set aside for them.
He wore these old, lousy clothes to Cal Hort meetings.
Some woman who saw this old gentleman there, and thought he must
35
Riess:
Riess:
Roderick:
be so poor, she asked if California Horticultural Society could
buy him at least a new pair of shoes so he'd have some decent
clothes to wear. That's the kind of a character that he was.
[laughing]
I think the plant world is full of characters.
Roderick: Oh yes.
Riess: How about Anita Blake? Do you think of her as a character?
Roderick: Yes. Anita Blake. The thing I keep thinking about her- -I
didn't hardly ever know her, but she used to give these
lectures, and finally she said, "You know, I got plants from
many sources," and she'd get to giggling,
from so-and-so, I got some from so-and-so
She said, "I got some
and I got some
through the government experiment station, and I got some of
them legally." [laughter]
Then the other character--! never met her, I only saw her
from a distance-- that was Madame Ganna Walska. She always used
her professional name. She had a forty-acre garden [Lotusland]
down in the Santa Barbara area. She married, I think it was
McCormick. They lived in Chicago. He built an opera house for
her, and she was the first to perform in the new opera house.
Her voice was so bad that everybody got up and walked out. So
they closed the opera. It was just recently the opera house has
been opened up, I understand.
But they would not do anything with any of society in
Chicago, and they finally moved--! guess maybe he died, and she
moved up there to Santa Barbara and built this great garden.
Some horrible, bad taste from what I've seen. She's supposed to
have left several million dollars to keep the garden going. Oh,
we've got plenty of characters around!
[referring to discussion off tape] You were describing the
Orchid Society. They used to meet at the Claremont Hotel when
they first organized, you said?
They had met there for awhile. Finally, about the second or
third time, I had to say who I was, from where. I got up and
said, "Wayne Roderick from Petaluma," and some woman right
alongside said, "Huh! Farmers coming in!" About three or four
years passed--! still went back at times- -and finally I got
cymbidiums to bloom. I took this one plant down. It was in a
ten- inch pot and had sixteen flower spikes on it- -an old-
fashioned thing that everybody throws away now. And they wanted
36
to know how I grew it. From then on I was known, because nobody
had more than one or two flower spikes to a pot.
We were using sawdust and shavings, and a cheap sprinkler
set up in the middle of the place where I had them outside in
the summertime- -I think it was about a two-dollar, two-and-a-
half dollar sprinkler instead of a fifty-dollar one. And they
shook their heads: "But you don't mean you're using just
regular shavings?" "Yes. Just whatever we get from the
sawmill." It wasn't fir bark, special ground, and all this kind
of thing. This was before fir bark, really. But they just
shook there heads and couldn't believe it. From then on they
didn't call me a farmer anymore.
Riess: Was Rod McLellan at that point the premier orchid person?
Roderick: Rod McLellan was just starting in on cymbidiums- -no, it's a
little bit later on than that. A few years later, some friends
of mine, we started trading with and getting some fairly good
cyrabidium, and they were all superior to what the McLellans had.
So they said, "What about making some trades?" I said, "Sure,
I'll bring down flowers that you can get pollen from." In the
meantime the McLellans had spent a heck of a lot of money and
got all the finest plants from Europe. And he come out, and he
took one look, and he said, "Trash." Turned around and walked
back. So, I took all my flowers home.
Riess: Really?
Roderick: Yes. Well, they had gotten hold of some beautiful- -the best
stock they could get.
Riess: But why did they say "trash"?
Roderick: Well, mine were just these little old-fashioned things, and they
didn't want them anymore. They were going into it in a big way.
He [McLellen] was always very fancy- -had to have a bow tie
on all the time and had to have his little cookie-duster
moustache trimmed, I guess, by a professional every day. He was
pretty fancy.
Riess: It sounds like we could write a book about snobs and eccentrics
in the flower business.
Roderick: Oh, yes. You know, at UC I got into everything I could, and I
got into the early plant explorers of the West. And if you want
to get into some really crazy ones, it's them. There were some
real, real strange ones. For instance the California poppy. It
37
was found by a French botanist, named for a German doctor friend
while they were working for Russians in Spanish territory, and
published in an English publication, as well as in a German.
Riess: That's Eschscholzia.
Roderick: Eschscholzia was Dr. [J. Friedrich] Eschscholz. It was
Chamisso-- afterwards he become a German citizen, [Adelbert] Von
Chamisso, and in Germany to this day he's still considered the
greatest love poet that's ever been born, he's the man that
wrote the book, The Man Without a Shadow. The love poems were
written to Eschscholz the second time that Eschscholz came back
to California. But still he was married and had fourteen kids.
Call that whatever you want!
[Interview 2: May 24, 1990 ]##
Riess: You are working with the Garden Conservancy? I see that the
first garden under their care is Ruth Bancroft's, in Walnut
Creek.
Roderick: There's a whole group of us working with Ruth Bancroft to get
everything straightened out as to exactly what property and
everything that she will give. And her children just think it's
the greatest thing to ever happen. They're all for it.
But down at Santa Barbara is Lotusland, Madame Ganna
Walska's garden, and the neighbors are all complaining about
having it open to the public, and the estate doesn't want to
bother having it open to the public. So the Garden Conservancy
is trying to get this straightened out with the neighbors and so
forth to go on and open it up.
Riess: There must be legal language and precedent that you can take
from groups like Nature Conservancy and get their help.
Roderick: Tides Foundation is our legal side and financial side. We had a
meeting with the Tides Foundation attorneys and Ruth Bancroft's
attorneys, and our group that's trying to get everything
straightened out. You never saw nicer things that the attorneys
had to keep saying and how they all worked together. Ruth's old
attorney came along, and he's in his late eighties and he's not
very competent anymore. Finally it came out that the group that
is working with Ruth is more for Ruth than they are for the
Conservancy in protecting the family. It was interesting.
After it was all over, that's the way it figured out.
Riess: That will be good when you're trying to explain this proposition
to future garden- givers .
38
Roderick: All of this is being carefully watched and thought about because
it's something so new. There are several places, like up in
Portland is the Berry Estate, which is now the Berry Botanic
Garden, but they can't hardly have it open—again, because of
the neighbors. So, these are some of the things that we want to
work on.
Generally speaking, people going to a botanic garden are
not the kind of people that are going to cause problems in the
area or in the botanic garden itself. You get a better quality
people that go to these places. The undesirable would rather
head for a bar or something that way.
Riess: In fact you would think it would increase values in the
neighborhood rather than alarm the neighbors.
Roderick: I've never been to Lotusland. I've met Madame Ganna Walska in
years back. That's all you can say, [laughs] met her and got
the heck out, because she was such a wild one!
Wayne Roderick, Mendocino Coast, 1965
39
III UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BOTANICAL GARDEN, 1960-1976
Job Possibilities for Roderick. 1960
Riess : Now we should plunge right into your work at the UC Botanical
Gardens. And that is "botanical," not "botanic," isn't it?
Roderick: Yes. They have that two-letter ending there that I can't quite
see what difference it makes, but it is important somewhere. I
always have said "botanic," but UC is "botanical."
Riess: Tell me about how you were hired.
Roderick: That goes back in history again. We had the nursery up in
Petaluma. We kept it. My father would say, "Oh, yes we're
going to move into town and work this out." And I said, "No,
let's keep it down low." It was more than what we could really
keep up, and we were trying not to hire help, too.
Then my father died and a lot of things had to be settled
out. At the same time the chicken industry had gone to pot,
and we were in the country, and our main customers were farmers,
and they couldn't afford anything that was luxury. Of course,
plants were something they could get along without.
It got down to- -we only did about three hundred dollars in
one month in the wintertime, and that was not easy, to try to
make a living on that kind of little bit of money. Plus,
ornamental plants are not very good boiled for dinner. I knew
there were a couple of openings at Davis. So I went over there
and talked around.
Riess: What kind of openings?
Roderick: One was a big research plot for working with all kinds of things
about shade trees- -disease -res is tance , not too large growers,
every description of a tree you could think of, flat- land, wind-
blowing, hot. The other job I can't quite remember, but it was
40
just as dull a work- -more or less doing the plowing in between
the trees and plants. And yes, they would hire me there right
away.
f
I got to thinking about this. The next week I said, "I'm
going down to UC Berkeley." I went to the garden. It turned
out that there was an opening. And here I was, the most dirty,
filthiest guy, because I decided to do it just on the spur of
the moment. Didn't even shave or anything. Got down there,
found out there was this very interesting little native area.
Riess: How did they describe the job to you?
Roderick: I don't remember exactly. It had been listed already. Anyhow,
I went down to Personnel, and I went to the head of Personnel in
these dirty clothes. Here were two or three men in beautiful
suits and ties and everything else. I had over an hour
interview, and something came up, the fellow was talking on the
intercom: "Yes, I'll be through with Mr. Roderick in about
twenty minutes. And so-and-so," which was this one fellow who
was still out there, "I can get rid of him in ten minutes.
Then, I'll be there." I felt like a damn fool for sure! I got
two raises when I was accepted.
Riess: Was it listed as "gardener," or what?
Roderick: No. It was called "senior nurseryman." They had very, very few
positions. There was a gardener, and senior nurseryman, and I
think that was it. Then assistant manager and manager and
director.
"Continuing Education"
Roderick: I got, in nothing flat, to the top of my category, and I
couldn't get any more raises. It went on for nine years that
way. The laws or the rules of the University said that if you
are not promoted in I think it was six years when you got to the
top of your field, that you were no good, and that you had to be
fired. I got an interview and then I became a "museum
scientist." But the job description said that I had to have at
least a master's degree, and I don't even have a degree, and
that it should be a person with a Ph.D.
At that time I also guided all the college classes that
used to come around to visit the garden. I took them through
the garden and lectured them on the different plants. When I
41
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick;
got this higher position, I couldn't take classes around
anymore, and they hired a Ph.D., and she couldn't take the
college kids ! She could only take grammar school kids , which
has turned out to be one of the greatest things of all: there's
all these grammar school kids coming, and they have a tremendous
bunch of docents that take the classes around, getting the
youngsters broken in on plants early.
Speaking of "taking classes,'
get some more academic work?
were you able to enroll at UC and
Did that happen at all?
No, it didn't. I thought about it and thought about it, and I
still couldn't quite get the classes I wanted in this area. I
was more into horticulture classes. I would have to take them
at Merritt, or some one of those places, and I was more or less
teaching the instructors over there!
In the Lester Rowntree oral history I read that she didn't
regret her lack of university education. "It would spoil
everything," she said, "It would be all put-on, veneer,
pretense. "1
I can tell you one thing that I absolutely adored about her.
She was telling me one time--. There was a patch of a Lewisia
rediviva. and you could see the ocean from there. Normally they
are inland where it's hotter and drier. It was just a small
colony. She went up to see it one spring, and the highway crew
had straightened the road out a little bit and took it out. Her
quote was: "I said strong words for a Quaker. I said strong
words!" I just bet she did say more than "darn" and "heck" on
that one! Oh, but she did get mad!
Employees and Managers at the Garden
Riess: When you arrived on the job at the Botanical Garden, who did you
talk to?
Roderick: The first person I talked with was Dr. [Helen-Mar] Beard. I had
had contact with her from time to time when I used to go down
there. I was so interested in the native plants. Many a time
we'd get talking over this, and I thought, "No, that's not that,
.that's a such and such." And I'd go in the book, and see that
1Lester Rowntree. California Native Plant Woman. Regional Oral History
Office, University of California, Berkeley, 1979.
42
there is this one little character that throws it into this and
not that.
Riess: You mean, in your nursery work in Petaluma you were already
specializing in native plants?
Roderick: Not specializing—we could hardly sell them, but we tried to.
But it went back to my high school, when I had the largest
collection of wildflower specimens that was ever collected for a
class project. Every spring in the science course — and I can't
remember the name of that class --you had to collect wildf lowers
and press them and have them identified. I think you were
supposed to have something like fifty, and once in awhile
someone got a hundred, and I think I had about two -hundred- and -
fifty species all together. So, it goes back.
Riess: When you were coming down to talk to Dr. Beard, it was out of
your own curiosity?
Roderick: And to see what they had. That way I would learn something.
Riess: Who was she?
Roderick: She was the botanist.
Riess: At the Botanical Gardens?
Roderick: Yes.
Riess: In my readings of the history of the Botanical Gardens there is
a swing between its being very much connected with the
University and then a kind of swing away. This seems to be an
issue.
Roderick: There was a lot of controversy in the University. Way back, it
was very important. Then there was a period when there was
hardly a graduate student that was doing anything up there.
Then there would be a whole bunch more graduate students. Of
course, when you get the graduate students up there or are
producing a lot of class material, that was when the Botanical
Garden was good.
When Reagan became governor, and he was cutting everything
he possibly could, botanic gardens and universities were getting
heavily cut. I was laughed at all the time because in my annual
reports for the native area I counted every individual flower I
gave out for class material. So I was producing anywhere from
forty to fifty thousand flowers every year just for class
material, and I got laughed at. Up at Davis especially I was
43
laughed at: "Who wants to be bothered with class material?
That's just nothing."
Well, Reagan cut the University severely. At UC Davis
their arboretum was cut to zero. But here at Berkeley we got
cut only 25 percent because we had all these masses of class
material. From then on, I was kind of liked.
Riess: I have a note here that when Mac [Watson] Laetsch came in, in
1969, the Botanical Garden was going in the direction of
relating more to community needs, outside UC. Do you think this
was seen as a way to keep themselves afloat, too?
Roderick: I can't remember because I don't have too much love for Laetsch.
Riess: Let's step back again. Who were some of the other people up
there? Herbert G. Baker became director in 1957.
Roderick: He was there at the beginning. He went out just as Laetsch came
in, immediately after, I think.
Riess: I wondered who you sat down with, for instance, and talked about
the philosophy behind the California native garden.
Roderick: Nobody. I talked to nobody. Helen-Mar Beard gave me a little
bit, but even before my time there was quite a stretch from this
one fellow till I took over. He was given a vehicle, gas card,
and told to go out and collect. The University a very little
bit, but this fellow got a nice all-native nursery, [laughs]
Then, he had to get out. I guess they caught up to him.
Riess: It was a scandal? He was selling on the side, or supplying?
Roderick: It was quite a scandal. He had a nursery up on the Russian
River. We didn't get very much plant material here, but I've
been to his nursery and it was absolutely covered with plants.
Riess: Who was he? Can we name his name?
Roderick: Yes. That was Harry Roberts.
Riess: I guess that is a kind of hazard of the job, the temptation to
do a little business on the side. Maybe this happens a lot.
Roderick: I never had time to do that for myself. For the first ten years
I lived there at Berkeley I owned a forty- five by forty- five
foot lot with an old Victorian house on it. There was no space,
and I was thankful. It was even a heck of a job cleaning out
the weeds on what little bit of land was showing.
44
Riess: Were you given a vehicle?
Roderick: No. I paid. Practically every last field trip was on myself.
For one thing, the one person immediately above me was extremely
jealous because I had, 1 guess, more knowledge on these things
than what he did. He was foreign-born. Somebody from Cal Hort
would come in and talk with me, and I would tell them, "Come on
over here. I've got a weed patch. I can weed, and we can talk,
and we don't have to worry." I'd be working away. He'd come up
and say, "I saw you talking to so-and-so. I won't tell on you
this time, but you watch out. You better not do that anymore."
Plus, the boss himself was such a miserable person. His
common thing for the garden was: "If there's anything I hate,
it's plants. I'm staying here till I can retire, and I'll never
come back to this horrible hell-hole." Worst of all, his orders
were never direct. You always had to try to figure out what he
meant. If he got mad at you, he wouldn't speak to you. There
were six months he wouldn't speak to me because he said one
thing: "First things first: weeds." It meant that I was not to
collect any more plants until I got the weeds under control. I
didn't know what he meant. I just went out and weeded faster.
But then he wouldn't speak to me for six months because I did
bring in a couple of plants the next weekend.
Riess: That's really hard to work that way.
Roderick: Yes. It was terrible. Baker was not a very good person. He
was pretty difficult to work under. And then there was this one
other botanist by the name of Paul [C.] Hutchison who was
impossible. Helen-Mar Beard- -well, her husband said that Helen-
Mar thinks in low- gear and jitters in high- gear. I was always
on the run all the time and couldn't get her to do things that
should be done. I'd go in and fill out the final papers,
something that way, to get the numbers- -every plant had to have
a number- -so I could plant it out. She got so she'd hide the
papers or lock them up so I couldn't get to them. Oh, it was
difficult.
Riess: Do you think it was because the Botanical Gardens lacked serious
University support?
Roderick: That was a lot of it. Then, the other thing was that about 80
percent, if not better than that, of the staff was only
interested in their paycheck. They weren't interested in the
garden and in the plants. Now it's just about the opposite.
Everybody's interested. I think one fellow is going to leave
because he doesn't like the place here. He was born and raised
45
in Oregon, and that's where he wants to go. So right now it's a
good job. I think as soon as he can he's going to move back to
Oregon, if he can get something up there he likes.
Weeding and Collecting Class Material
Riess: If you were set to weeding — I'm just kind of curious about all
of these ranking orders --what did the gardeners do? You said
you were a "senior nurseryman," and there were "gardeners" also.
What were they doing?
Roderick: There were only a couple. Mostly, it was "senior nurseryman."
Riess: And yet, you were put to work weeding?
Roderick: That was my favorite thing, weeding. I still like it. The
first thing in my work clothes that's worn out is the knees from
being down on my hands and knees weeding. You can see what's
going on. The little plants — you can really see if they're
coming on and doing well. You can know an awful lot of what's
going on by weeding. I've already said that the University
Botanical Garden really was a glorified weed patch. Everything
comes down to that. You've got all this area, you've got all
these rare and choice plants planted out, and you've got to keep
the weeds from getting around.
Riess: But I would have thought, just for the sake of argument, that in
fact the California native section wasn't that rare and choice,
and that natives and weeds are practically indistinguishable to
a lot of people.
Roderick: Yes, in the native area there were—. We had a lot of different
species of clarkia. In one bed they would be a weed, and in the
next bed they would be a desirable plant. This is where I had
problems with the student help that I got. They always at first
would think I was the most horrible person. To get them on my
side, the first thing I would tell them was that they could call
me "the old fart."
Then I'd tell them, "Now, you weed these three plants out
totally." Then, I'd take them back over: "Now, these next two
.weeds have got to go." So, they would leave the things that I
wanted. About this time they would get to laughing with me, and
they would say, "How old are you?" I always told them, "Two
years younger than God." This is the way I kept two jumps ahead
46
of them. [laughing] It was a lot of fun working with those
college kids and trying to keep just ahead of them.
Riess: What you've described so far is just maintaining what was there.
Roderick: Oh, I was out every weekend, practically, collecting somewhere
or other.
Riess: Was it all on your own initiative, or did you have to check it
out first? Get it okayed?
Roderick: Well, the botany classes had all the different materials they
needed for class, and the most important class that I was
associated with was the taxonomy class, where they had to learn
to identify the plants. Unfortunately, that class started in
January, so it was very difficult to get a lot of material for
that time.
I'd get the list of the families that they wanted- -some
quite often with the genus, they'd want maybe three different
genera in one family- -so, when I was out I'd watch for seeds
that would bloom early or late in those families. Plus, I would
go down to the desert. Generally I left on New Year's Day to go
down to the desert for a few days. I took ice chests with me,
and I collected a lot of stuff that would come in at the right
time. Some of these things froze beautifully and we'd freeze
some of them when we got back.
Riess: Freeze the seeds?
Roderick: No, the flowers for the classes. Those classes got up to about
four hundred, four hundred- and- fifty students. That's how come
I was listing so many hundreds of thousands of flowers for class
material. We'd bring those out, and I did not distinguish, when
I put in my report, whether it was wild-collected plants, or
whether it was ones that came right out of the garden. I
figured it was just all part of my job. That's why I listed so
many.
Riess: Those professors were totally dependent on you then?
Roderick: Yes. When I left the University and went to Tilden, the fellow
that took my place, a fellow that I helped for his formal
education, any plant was all right if it came up on its own, but
if the weeds came up, that was too- bad. He was "too good to
pull a weed." All that class material kind of thing went down
the hill to zero practically.
Riess: What professors do you remember particularly working well with?
47
Roderick: Bob Ornduff, who then became the director. To me, that was
absolutely heavenly. The only thing that differed in our
thoughts was that for the Botanical Garden I had to think
"little" about what I could take care of. He could think "big."
We're still good friends to this day.
Riess: When Ornduff would send you a list, he knew that all those
things were there, or he kind of hoped that you'd be able to
find them?
Roderick: He hoped, and he knew that I was going out and collecting, too.
This was when there were still lots of wildf lowers. I did like
I did with seed collecting: I never collected a whole patch.
I'd just take here and there so nobody ever could see where I
had taken. It would have to be a big colony before I --well, you
have to figure four hundred- and- fifty specimens, and generally,
the smaller flowers, the students had to have two. That would
take an awful lot. So it would have to be a very large patch
before I would really touch it.
Riess: You knew your plants. But taxonomies? How much further along
were you on some of these areas than the students? Did you have
to run to keep ahead?
Roderick: I didn't have T.V. I didn't go here or there. I didn't go to
the shows. I don't go to bars- -still don't go to bars. At that
time I didn't take too many magazines. I had my nose in the
books, studying this and studying that, all the time. I did
that on my own before we ever had a nursery.
When I was in high school and got interested in this botany
thing, my folks bought me [Willis Linn] Jepson's Manual fof the
Flowering Plants of California! . I have it right over here, and
there's no cover left on it. It's in bad shape, but I can't get
rid of it. I studied and studied, and when we had the nursery I
did all the botanical work completely, and studied and studied
night after night. I learned all this on my own.
Then, I had to go a little bit different when I went to
work for the University. Instead of it being just a little bit
of a pleasure like before, I then had to start working from the
pVnt family and think of it as class material. It made quite a
little bit of a change.
Also, the little bit of botany--! had only the one semester
of, botany at junior college before the war came along. In fact,
48
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
I never quite finished; I was drafted before I was finished.
Then I found out that my professor gave a complete different
accent than what everybody else used. I had to learn everything
from a different accent. It's still confusing.
It was a lot of fun, though. My pleasure was going out and
seeing plants in the wild. Then, to work with the University--
I'd still do it even if I didn't get paid. [I shouldn't say
that.] They did give me Friday afternoon for going out and
doing that. I did get, about five times, a car to go out and
collect. One time- -I was never so disgusted--! got the car as
far as Eureka and had to put it in the garage and get it all
fixed up and then turn it right around and come back home
because they didn't think it was going to make it back home.
You were better off relying on your own car?
Yes.
Did you ever bring back the wrong thing?
I brought back one plant, a Compos itae named Iva axillaris. the
greatest stuff for class material. This must have been about
the late 1960s, I'd say. I think now they've finally gotten rid
of the horrible thing. [laughter]
"Desk Work" and the Dawn Redwood Fuss
Riess: How was your day divided up, between the weeding and the student
work and just sitting at a desk?
Roderick: I was never, hardly ever allowed in those days to sit at a desk.
Riess: Weren't you doing some publication along with all of this?
Roderick: My little bit of writing and all of that — of course, I kept
being told, "No, you can't write that. You're not educated.
You can't write that." I had to do that all at my house at
night or early morning.
In those years there was practically no work in the office.
A very few minutes a day. In the rainy weather, yes, then I did
a little bit of research. But mostly, for three years, I
cleaned out the vault from day one of the Botanic Garden.
Riess: What was the vault?
49
Roderick: It was a vault that had just everything stuffed in it to get it
out of sight. It was a room about ten-by-ten feet. Now it is
being used as a vault should be used correctly. This was filled
with boxes and boxes. I went through every one of those boxes.
They found things they never knew existed.
Riess: Papers or plant materials?
Roderick: It was all paper stuff. Boxes of papers. Tons of old water
bills and those things we threw away. But then I found such
things as a letter from the person that they were trying to hire
to build the rhododendron dell. In it he said that he would not
accept the job unless they furnished one boxcar- load of leaf-
mold, which would cost six hundred dollars.
Then I found, I think that it was from 1948 or 1949, a
letter from the Arnold Arboretum saying what an s.o.b. that
[Ralph] Chaney was for stealing all the glory of the dawn
redwood, when it was Arnold Arboretum that had gone over there
first and brought back seed, and then, about three or four
months later, Chaney goes over and brings back a couple of
seedlings and more seed, and with all kinds of publication.
This was a five page, single -spaced letter.
Riess: So, you saved out all those interesting things?
Roderick: Oh, sure. Then finding the old pictures of the canyon when it
was still a dairy ranch- -1916, I think, the first photographs
were taken. One of those man-planted pines, that was an old
pine then, is still in existence. There were six of them
planted. There's still one of them.
Riess: Was there always a lot of fuss about the dawn redwoods? Did
people come from near and far to see them because they were so
special?
Roderick: That I don't remember so much. The one thing about them there
at the garden that's so interesting is that the first two were
planted above the dell, one on each side of the stream, and
they're much bigger than the ones down in the lower part of the
dell. This Harry Roberts that I was talking about was tending,
I guess, those dawn redwoods when they were first brought in,
and there was one scrub, one that just wasn't doing anything--.
Riess: A runt?
Roderick: A real runt. He gave that to my mother, and my mother had the
first one planted in Sonoma County. She gave it very tender
50
Riess:
Roderick:
care, and finally it took off, and it did grow. I haven't taken
a look at it for quite a few years. But when she sold the ranch
in about 1970, I guess, it had about a two -foot trunk on it at
that time. So, it really took off.
But now it's common enough.
I think now they've kind of gone downhill as far as something to
plant. They're rooted from cuttings, just about like our native
redwood here.
California Native Area
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Were you propagating them, or were you not involved in that kind
of activity?
I didn't get into that. I never tried that. I propagated my
own things for the native area. Of course, the thing I
propagated the most was any of our native bulbs. I specialized
in that. I had two hundred two-by-two foot boxes, and I had
anywhere up to three species of bulbs- -generally Brodiaea and
Allium and Calachortus- -in each box, or something like that.
When I left, this fellow that took my place let the weeds grow
and almost all of those were killed out. Now that Roger Raiche
is there, he has built up a fine collection of them again, but
not so extensive.
When you arrived, was there a lot of unplanted area?
It was almost all unplanted.
I want to get a picture of what you had to deal with when you
arrived. Was it the same area of the garden?
The same area, except anything that was from the main road that
goes on down to, say, over across the creek, from there south
through the native area, that was all open. There was just a
fringe along the main path through the native area, there was a
fringe of plants there, and they had been planted in gallon
cans, can and all. And they were still dying and falling over,
getting their roots cut off. So, there was practically nothing
along that main path that was originally there. I think
probably eight or nine plants only.
51
Triumphing Over the Soil
Riess: What did you tackle first?
Roderick: First thing was trying to get the place cleaned up, and working
the soil. I tried to plant along the front, but originally that
was not to be the Botanical Garden. From the stream that comes
down through the rhododendron dell east was supposed to be the
Botanical Garden. The lawn is a raised bed, and it's all the
topsoil from that front part of the native area and the parking
lot. On the lower side of the parking lot was the dump. I
spent years cleaning out broken glass, old wire, pieces of tin
cans .
The soil was the most horrible clay. Finally, I got lots
of chicken manure and put it on top of this. It was more litter
than it was manure. That still wouldn't break it up enough. I
thought I had it okay, and I had a hundred small pots of plants
to plant out. I turned the sprinkler on and let it run one
whole day. Turned it off that night. I started the next
morning with a pick, worked all day, my whole eight hours, and I
got ninety- four of those two-and-a-half inch pots in the ground
with a pick. And they all died because the ground went and
cracked again. In those years you had to be careful walking
across that area because the ground cracked so bad, you could
fall in and break a leg. Up to eight- inch-wide cracks. It was
horrible.
Riess: Really? So, you just continued to amend it? How did you
develop the land?
Roderick: Baker put one of his research plants in that front area. His
idea was that on the desert there's a thunderstorm every week--
not in the same place, but he never figured that one out. So he
had these plants watered heavily every week, and they grow in
rock crevices or in grit. And here it was in this horrible
clay, and they rotted.
Then he went and demanded to have big holes dug about two
foot in diameter, two foot deep. Filled them with sand and put
his plants in there. Well, they held water even better, and the
plants died quicker [laughter]. So then I went through and
broke this soil from one of these holes to the other so that the
water could run out down in the bottom.
About the same time, up at the Rad Lab they were digging
out soil that was far superior to what we had, although it was
still clay. They were taking it out to build a new building.
52
I stopped a fellow. It turned out he had three trucks, and
he's getting paid to haul out at so much a load. I told my
immediate superior, or my boss I should say, and hf says, "So
what? Let it go." (This is the fellow that said that he hated
plants.) So I told the assistant manager. He went over this
guy's head. He called Dr. Baker's office, and the secretary
there said, "Oh, great, great."
We had the guys drop their loads on to me. We got sixty-
two loads. The sixty- third one was backing down into the area
when Dr. Baker comes in. Well, the secretary hadn't told him,
and he threw this tantrum. Absolutely would have no more. I
had to push him aside to keep him from being run over. You
can't believe how a grown man can stamp his feet, [laughter] I
pushed him out, but he had it stopped and I couldn't get
anymore . I wanted a hundred loads .
Riess: But nevertheless, that really changed the terrain.
Roderick: That made all the difference. Then the next thing, after that
Baker wouldn't let us have sand or grit to go into the clayey
stuff that we got. But the road was not paved in front of the
native area, and I'd take my helpers, when everybody was gone
that was a boss, and we'd hurry and sweep that gravel up and run
wheelbarrow- loads all over on top of that clay and work it into
the clay so it couldn't be seen too much. That's the way we got
things going.
Riess: That's interesting. That's really funny.
Roderick: I was laughed at and everything else. Everybody knew what I was
doing, you know, but he couldn't catch me.
Riess: Sounds like it wasn't truly a botanical garden. It was a garden
that existed in response to whatever kind of needs the
University had, and it wasn't a public garden.
Roderick: When I went there, there was practically no class material
coming out of the native area.
Riess: If they weren't doing class material, what were they were doing
up there? Because that's the very least that they would be
doing.
Roderick: This is what I would like to know myself. I have no idea what
was really thought of.
Riess: It didn't have a public function?
53
Roderick: No. It was very much of a weed patch.
I did a lot of things that nobody had ever thought about
doing. I started the first vernal pool that was ever started.
I published the very first papers on the horticulture of a
vernal pool. That had never been done before.
I brought in all kinds of annuals, tried everything to see
what I could grow. A lot of them would not do anything. The
soils still are not right for growing a lot of that stuff. The
first and only time that Dirca had ever been grown from seed and
planted out, I had done that.
Riess: What is Dirca?
Roderick: It's a shrub that's restricted to the greater Bay Area. It's
related to daphne. It's in the same family. It's called
leatherwood, because you can take the stems and tie a knot in
them, it's so pliable. It is on the rare and endangered list.
Anyhow, I got a bunch of seed of that- -a hell of a chore to get
the seed. I checked the plants every week. Went out one week,
looked at them, and no, it's going to be another couple of
weeks. Then I went out the next week and the seed was all gone.
It drops off before it looks like it's ripe.
I got down on my hands and knees in this patch and I got
about two hundred and fifty seeds. I got about two hundred to
grow, and I got about twenty of those established in gallon
cans. Of those I had, I think seven of them survived out in the
open ground. To this day there are still one or two of them
left there at the garden.
Riess: And this is a good survival rate?
Roderick: Yes, I think so. There have been others that have grown on and
had better soils, and hopefully they were planted at better
locations.
Riess: That's just a reminder of how much you have to do to get your
results.
Roderick: I did a lot of that kind of stuff. Of course, that to me was
pure joy, just trying out everything.
54
Plant Islands, Soil Tests
Riess: When you talk about making the vernal pool, and developing the
pygmy forest and such things, was your thinking about plant
communities just developing? How many communities do you have
within that California native garden?
Roderick: I never took time to figure out.
Riess: At the Oakland Museum the California transect is organized in
nine biotic zones. Was this way of looking at California
natives developed back when you started working there?
Roderick: I never thought about that. I looked at it more later on like
what Ledyard Stebbins called his "plant islands," and I remember
looking at all these areas and finding these different things
and oh, yes, that soil's such and such, and so that's going to
be different, and not knowing for sure how acid it was or
alkaline. But I'd take and duplicate something towards that
type of soil, with more or less some of the minerals I might
find in there, sneak a little bit of lime in, for instance, to
get more like what they found in one place, or add lots and lots
of acid stuff.
Of course, where I was born and raised there in Petaluma,
it was very alkaline, and we just kept putting in more and more
humus to counteract, to make it more acid. I was using that,
not thinking so much of acidity, except like in the Central
Valley where you find the vernal pools and you would find the
white coating on top of some of those. This is where I would
put lime in to give it those conditions. But always I was using
grit and sand and humus to break up the clay so roots could get
down.
Riess: If you brought back some plant which would be practically
impossible to grow in the soil up at the Botanical Garden, did
you test the soil in the field and try to duplicate that?
Roderick: No. I would never go into that. But I had the feeling in my
hand what a soil should feel like. I could take and feel that:
oh yes, this has got more grit than most places, so I'm going to
have to get this onto a mound to get the drainage. Quite often
I would dig down into the clay and put in a transition zone.
When I went to work up at Tilden it was just the opposite
with Jim Roof. He didn't know there would be any difference in
55
soil, you'd just plant something on top. Then he found out they
wouldn't grow in that horrible clay. He then made mounds of
good drainage on top of the clay without making a transition
zone. So the roots go down and hit the clay and turn out, and
if you don't water them, they die. I would always make that
transition zone.
Riess: They're able to penetrate that?
Roderick: They kind of adapt to a heavier soil. Here in my own place with
this horrible clay, when I start to convert to get a good top
soil, the first layers I spade into the clay. I spade in, and I
do that three times, breaking the clay up as much as possible to
the smallest particles so I would get a good transition zone.
I've always done that.
Riess: And then when the roots get down there, they toughen up
sufficiently so that they can then fight their way through?
Roderick: They seem then to be able to penetrate into the clay. At least
that's what I kind of have worked out over the years, without
doing any more research work on it.
Riess: Speaking of Jim Roof, was it helpful for you to be able to go
over the hill into Tilden Botanic Garden and see what he was
doing when you were working at the UC Botanical Garden?
Roderick: No. At that time I didn't do any of that.
A Vernal Pool and a Pygmy Forest
Riess :
Roderick:
Why did you do a vernal pool?
vernal pool?
Where did you see your first
I'd seen them earlier. Then when I started to work for the
University, and I was travelling around, I got to see real
vernal pools, more than what I was ever used to up in Sonoma,
you know, up in through that part of the country.
The vernal pool plants were such interesting plants, and we
had one graduate student that came in- -oh, I hadn't been there
more than two or three years --and was doing research on this one
genus called Downingia. I got fascinated with that, especially.
So I had to have a vernal pool. I made a little vernal pool
which is still there and still in use.
56
Riess: I remember seeing Downingia down at Coyote Hills, in one of
their ponds.
Roderick: Yes. In good years there's lots of it down there. But the best
one of all was over near Byron, so [ironically] they made a good
hay field out of it, levelled it, and filled the vernal pool in.
Now the big, big patch is not so good anymore.
Riess: How about pygmy forests? Where did you get that idea?
Roderick: Well, my father loved bonsai. My mother and father used to go
up to Fort Bragg, and my mother always would have to go out and
see the dwarf forests, and my father got fascinated. Near the
spagnum moss bog, which has now got a big fence around it to
protect it, there was the city dump where the neighbors dumped
all their garbage.
It was just a little dirt track out there, and how my folks
got out there I don't know. But they saw these trees that had
been run over more than once, all twisted and gnarled. He'd dig
them up out of the little road.
Riess: This is up at Fort Bragg? Right outside the town of Fort Bragg?
Roderick: Yes, just off of Highway 20.
Anyway, my father dug up these old twisted trees.
I started to work down at UC shortly after my father died.
Closed out the nursery and got everything straightened out. I
went and I took a lot of ray plants that were there that my
mother couldn't take care of, and there were several of these
bonsai that had never been touched. They were still in the
original soil.
I don't know how long I had them, but I'd say about three
or four years. I made this little cement platform with a little
edge around it. And I knew a friend who had some of the soil in
his place, and I got the soil and dug a few more plants out of
his place. He was clearing it. And I made my first little
dwarf forest.
The oldest, biggest plants were the ones that my father
had. The pine tree that's there today was one of those that my
father had dug. That would have been about 1950 when he dug
that. It's still there. It's not very big, and it was old
then. That's how I got that started.
57
That dwarf forest there at UC now has more than doubled its
size. I had just a tiny area, what I could handle and take care
of. Now that these other soils have been all amended, you know,
and all this here, it's got so now that it's easy for a person
to take care of a bigger area. They have, I guess, tripled the
size of that piece of land there.
Riess: I'll give your voice a rest and read a description from an
article in a campus publication fBerkeleyan. April 18, 1990,
Vol. 18, No. 20] that came out around the time of the 100th
anniversary of the Botanical Garden. It starts out:
"Surrounded by poppies more vibrant than
taxicabs, the vernal pool at the University's
Botanical Garden is a replica of rain- filled
ponds that are disappearing in the onslaught of
urbanization and agricultural development in
California's Central Valley. Nearby is a
hillside dotted with boulders and clumps of
delicate wildf lowers, a recreation of alpine
fields above eleven thousand feet high in the
Sierra Nevada. "
Is that alpine field area yours?
Roderick: No. That's just real new. I had made a rock garden- like area
in there to grow alpines. Again, I had on the top part all
granite. I brought all those rocks in on my own, all the soil
in on my own, the granitic soils. I figured I brought in
somewhere between sixty and seventy tons of materials over the
years doing that.
Riess: In the back of some vehicle of yours?
Roderick: My pick-up.
Riess: "Then there are the stunted pines and cypress
painstakingly transferred from the Mendocino
coast along with acid-rich soil for the
reconstruction of a pygmy forest."
Riess: Do you know the name Edward Greene from way back, the person who
apparently started the garden?
Roderick: He was the founder of the Department of Botany for the
University.
58
Riess: This says of him,
"Something of a visionary, Greene insisted on
collecting the native plants of the state for
the garden situated on the gentle slope where
Moffitt Library now stands."
Did some of those old plant materials end up in your native
garden?
Roderick: No. I think there were hardly any of those kinds of plants that
were moved up to UC in the 1920s. I think mostly potted plants
and things like that were moved up. Probably more cuttings
taken of what was on the campus proper and grown on. As far as
I can remember of what I've gone through, there were no real
specimens moved up.
Native Garden, Strybing Arboretum
Riess: Where else could you go and see masses of California natives
being grown? Had Strybing Arboretum developed their California
native section?
Roderick: No. About 1962 or 1963 I really got acquainted with Art
Menzies. He was just starting the native area there himself. I
kept him sober longer than anybody else had ever done, five days
short of six months without taking a drink. We went out
practically every weekend someplace in California and collected.
Of course, he couldn't drive. I think it was because he knew
he'd get probably drunk and would wreck a car and kill somebody.
I think this is probably why he wouldn't drive, but I never
found out.
Riess: But he was not your mentor in all of this?
Roderick: No. There was already a lot of planting, like the redwoods and
all that, in Strybing. But he's the one that really went on to
develop the rest of the area.
Then he got acquainted with Barbara--! can't remember what
her name was before she got her divorce- -and they married, and
she took [drove] him. But he still couldn't leave liquor alone.
Riess: Barbara Menzies- -I know that name. Wildf lowers?
59
Roderick: Yes, it goes way, way back. I got to know several of the
Menzies here in California. Rob, who lived in San Rafael, was
the head of the family, and he had the manor chair and the
family silver, the family china. He was plant-happy. I never
found out exactly what different persons did for certain, but I
do know that the cook was a rose expert, and the butler kept all
the equipment in good working condition and kept the paths,
things like that.
But Art and both his mother and father and his brother were
all alcoholics. The brother was, most of the time, in an
institution. His brain was gone pretty well. Finally Art just
got so bad that he went and killed himself. He knew he'd been
drunk and so bad on the job for so long that they were going to
fire him, so he committed suicide. But what a plantsman!
Western Hills Nursery, Occidental
Riess: That's a sad side note.
Had Marshall Olbrich and Lester Hawkins gotten Western
Hills Nursery in Occidental going by then?
Roderick: Let's see, it was after my mother built her retirement home,
which would have been about the 1970s, when Western Hills was
trying to get going. I can't tell you exactly how we got
together. My mother would have them down to Petaluma for
dinner. They'd talk plants like mad, so quite often I'd be in
on this .
My mother would go out—you always had to come before dark
so she could go out --and she'd dig up a lot of things for the
[Occidental] nursery. They'd always bring her a few things from
what they were getting together. They would trade back and
forth. There are still quite a few plants that they consider
good that my mother introduced, and my mother bought a lot of
things from them that they couldn't keep growing there at their
place.
Riess: Their place in Occidental is awfully damp and cool.
Roderick: Yes.
One thing still has not really got on the market, and my
mother found out by accident how to grow it. This was a
Hydrangea villosa. It's one that has to have lime. She planted
60
the plant right against the foundation of her hothouse. It was
by accident that she did this, and it did beautifully. In acid
soils it does zero. It was planted about six inches from the
foundation, so of course the roots immediately got right against
all that nice, fresh cement. It is a magnificent plant.
Riess: Western Hills is more like a garden than a nursery.
Roderick: It is a garden-nursery.
Riess: Was their intention to create a California native garden?
Roderick: It was created to grow unusual plants. It's still that same way
today .
Riess: Unusual native plants or not?
Roderick: Anything and everything, including natives.
Riess: They were not pursuing the natives?
Roderick: No. They loved natives, but then they got so they really went
wild for Australians --they planted a lot of those. Then they
went into the perennials. They went- -Lester never went to
England to do anything, but Marshall did, and collected lots of
the new perennials.
They were not too particular whether they were high-
maintenance or low water requirements and all this. California
Flora [Nursery] in Fulton is more interested in low water-
requirement plants, but Western Hills is still going in for
plants that need a lot of water. See, they are in a high
rainfall area, and that used to be a boggy area. It used to be
all just solid rushes. It's wet almost the year around.
Riess: I mentioned that nursery because being at the Botanical Garden
for seventeen years, you must have gotten quite a network of
people who could tell you where to go and get things. I'm
trying to see how that network evolved.
Roderick: It turned out that all the graduate students and so forth came
to me to ask where they could find different things in the wild.
I was always interested in every plant I could get my nose into,
so of course any of these new nurseries and things that way, I
had to get my nose in there right away and find out what was
going on.
61
Cross-State Collecting Trips
Riess:
Roderick
Riess :
Roderick
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
On your trips I know you had plants that you had to get. But in
seeking those plants did you cover every corner of the state?
I used to. When I worked for UC I tried to be in every county
once a year—well, it turned out to be about every year and a
half. I used to start out New Year's Day, go down into the low
desert and gradually work up farther north and higher up into
the mountains . I had a certain place I had to go year after
year and see what everything was like there.
When you got to an area would you talk to locals to find out
where things were?
Sometimes. More than anything else, it's just what I observed.
For instance, to go to the desert I always went over Tehachapi,
got on the far side onto the desert, then I turned north, and I
used to camp all the time for the first night at Jawbone Canyon.
I loved the name of that. All of a sudden I found out that
there were unbelievable masses of flowers from January on
through April, until finally now the motorcyclists have just
torn the canyon to pieces.
But I could go in there and find three or four species of
Gilias for class material, in masses, and things of that nature
that I could always get. Plus, being in a canyon with many
little side washouts, you could always find a place that was
sheltered from the winds. It was such a good place for the
first night and the last night. It was a seven-hour drive from
that area to home. It was just a good stop.
Once you parked your vehicle- -truck, I take it? Was it always a
truck?
I tried to have a pick-up. I still have a pick-up.
For many hours would you explore?
I was rather cautious. Too cautious, probably. If the road had
not had very much traffic on it, and you could only see two or
three cars a day, I wouldn't go on it because I'd be by myself,
and God only knows what can happen to a person out that way. In
fact, one time I tried one of these roads, and I could see where
cars had been, and I went out there and sank down out of sight.
Took a share of one day trying to get myself out. That was my
first education on the desert.
62
Riess: How about snakes and things like that?
Roderick: I don't pay any attention to snakes. They're friendly, they're
nice.
Riess: I guess if you're looking for things, you're observing
everything anyway.
Roderick: You're going to see one, and especially, you can hear one.
Programs: Indian Uses, and Explorers of the West
Riess: Back to the Botanical Garden. You said, when you were summing
things up in the beginning, that the educational programs were
the greatest change --the docents making the garden available and
intelligible to children.
Roderick: It's the greatest thing that's ever happened.
Riess: Bob Ornduff said that you developed the program on Indian uses
of native plants. When did that happen and why?
Roderick: Well, several things. On the labels that we have for the plants
you have to have the author who described the plant, and if they
had Indian uses you have to have that on it. So curiosity
killed the cat. Dr. Beard had a couple of books on the Indian
uses. They were very poor, but she had them. I got interested
in it. "Well," I'd think, "That doesn't sound very good," so I
had to get my nose into more and more of this. On the other
side of the wall in there [gestures] I've got a whole row of
books on Indian uses. I've gone into that a great deal.
I worked up the labels for the first trail. Well, it
wasn't good enough for them, so they hired some girl to do this.
Oh God, I got so mad at her! I'd bawl her out. They went ahead
and published a trail guide with numbers identifying the plants,
and they had the wrong picture, and the wrong plants with the
wrong uses, and everything else. I screamed and bitched, and
finally I got those pretty well straightened out.
Then I got more interested in these authors. Quite often
there would be two and three persons a plant was named after,
and I had to find out what that was all about. Quite often one
of them would be the person that found the plant. So I went
into the early plant explorers of the West and worked up a very
63
interesting lecture, and I have to give it — every few months
somebody else will ask for it.
Riess: You mean now?
Roderick: Oh yes. I got my slides permanently set up, and I've got a
whole list of all the explorers, the dates that they were here
in the West, and what some of the more important plants were
that they found.
Riess: Have you published that, also?
Roderick: No. I have it partly worked up. My problem is trying to write
so a person can make sense out of it. I have to have a lot of
good editors to work on me.
Riess: I sounds like an important thing to get onto paper. Why don't
you just tape-record it and then let somebody transcribe it?
Roderick: Well, I've got somewhere put away in this house about two -thirds
of them, oh, let's say one page, and for most of these I even
got line drawings made to have a little booklet done.
Riess: Did you give lectures on the Indian uses?
Roderick: The Indian uses- -I did a little bit at UC, but mostly it was
giving lectures out around. At one time, when the Native Plant
Society was quite young, there was one member of the board of
directors that was a grammar school teacher- -the greatest person
you ever saw in your life. He got me involved with this. I
made up a lot of the stuff, and he got me into going around to
some of the schools and showing this .
I had a tug o' war rope, you know, that I made out of
Fremontodendron bark. It was long enough so that three kids
could hang onto each end of it, and then they could see if they
could break it. Oh, gosh, the kids just loved getting involved.
I really had a lot of fun doing that. I still have a lot of
Indian friends--. No, most of my good Indian friends, the old
ones, are all dead now.
Riess: Did you pursue your questions about plants with them?
Roderick: There was this one lady that I absolutely adored.
Riess: Where was she?
Roderick: She was up on the Klamath River. She was a Karok--the last
pure-blooded Karok--and her grandmother was the last medicine
64
man of the tribe. When Grandma got too old, little Ethel did
the collecting of the plants for her grandma. She still lived
where it was primitive enough that she kept three dogs to make
sure that one of them would find any bear that cam«^ wandering
into her place. Her address was Somes Bar, California.
Riess: Karok is an Indian group I don't know.
Roderick: It was immediately above the Hoopas. The other interesting
thing was that the Hoopas were kind of warlike, while the Karoks
were very friendly. Even today, some of the Hoopas- -I just
don't get very close to them.
I was visiting this one Indian lady, and this fellow saw me
there. Pretty soon I left, and we met someplace. Boy, I'm
telling you right now, he was friendly and, "Come on, we're
going to have a big dance tonight up at the Forks of the Salmon.
Come on up. Oh, we're going to have fun. Everybody's going to
get drunk, and the blood's going to fly in all directions. Oh
boy, are we going to have beautiful fights!" You know, this
kind of people.
Riess: Were the people in anthropology interested in any way in what
you were finding out from the Indians?
Roderick: No. They were doing their own thing, and I wasn't good enough
for that.
Riess: It sounds like you are kind of a natural teacher, and maybe not
everybody up at the Botanical Garden was --that your reason for
doing this was that you were interested in sharing it.
Roderick: Yes. I love sharing. In fact, this last Saturday down at the
arboretum at the UC Santa Cruz campus I gave a lecture, and I
was introduced as "too generous, giving away most of my garden
to anybody that wants it, as well as knowledge." That's one of
the ways I was introduced. That's all I like doing is sharing.
It's like with the Indians. I have had so much pleasure with
them, and I love to share. I've learned from them.
Roses and Orchids, and the Public
Riess: In an article [Herbert G.] Baker wrote, I believe in 1977 in
Pacific Horticulture, he said that the Botanical Garden's
horticultural connections to rose and herb and orchid groups and
so on were stronger than the connections to the Department of
65
Botany. Rose and orchid growers and so on would visit the
gardens and get involved in giving things to the gardens , and
the botany department had kind of withdrawn?
Roderick: The orchid collection had quite a few hybrids and such things
given to the garden, of no botanical value. At one time it was
a very lovely collection with a lot of showy plants. The rose
garden many, many years back was a very big one, but I think it
was gone before Baker ever got there. Now they've got a
heritage rose collection. Rather small, but it is also to
encourage more people to come in and visit the Botanic Garden.
Riess: I see, the effort is to bring in people.
Roderick: Yes. It can go two ways. Botanically it is interesting, and it
shows the history of roses. But also it is something that joins
the wild part with the modern plants.
Riess: Were cultivars being produced up there, or was that not the work
of the Botanical Garden?
Roderick: I think you are going to find that cultivars are coming from
other places . We were selecting out wild plants that showed a
cultivar form, but not stressing that. Rancho Santa Ana Botanic
Garden has done a lot more than that. Santa Barbara Botanic
Garden has done a lot more than that. Tilden now is going quite
a bit that way. In fact, we've got one plant that we have
figured out a cultivar name for and we'll be introducing it
probably this fall.
Riess: And then you make it available through plant sales?
Roderick: Well, we'll be giving cuttings to nurserymen and places like
that to get it into cultivation.
More on Employees and Managers at the Garden
Riess: Do you remember a fellow named Paul Hutchinson?
Roderick: Boy, do I!
Riess: Did we mention him already?
Roderick: We just barely mentioned him, but that's all.
Riess: He was the senior garden botanist?
66
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick;
Riess:
Roderick:
Yes. The funny thing was that they found out after we finally
got rid of him that he had practically no more education than I
did. [laughs]
Do you think you scared people who worked under you?
I don't think so. I did not antagonize anyone. In fact, one
fellow that was way under me, he was so horrible and bad, I kept
telling him, "You're so bad. If you make so much trouble again,
I'm going to see if I can have you fired." The fellow that was
the manager then, the foreigner, he had plenty of excuses to
fire the fellow, but still wouldn't fire him.
That was Anton Christ who was the manager?
fellow?"
That's the "foreign
Yes. I can't remember the guy's name now. I can still see him.
He was an alcoholic, and he would leave the weeds and pull the
big plants. In fact, he would take a saw and saw off shrubs
when he was supposed to be only weeding. That guy, every time I
see him he still thanks me for all the things I tried to do for
him, including firing him, I guess! I don't know. He's still
friendly. But I have tried never to antagonize a person. I
would tell a person exactly what I thought and why, so there's
no way that they could be mad.
Sixties Disruptions at the Garden
Roderick: I went through so much in the sixties, all these flower people
and all this, and especially the minorities raising hell. Hate,
hate, hate everywhere. I got the wild idea that if I use the
expression "hate" in a jovial way, maybe we can get rid of the
hate in the word "hate." So I keep telling everybody that I
hate them and all this, especially to these young kids- -well,
some of them were forty years old- -that I work with and have
around all the time. I keep telling them that I hate them, but,
"Here, take this plant. Now, shut up. I hate you." I'd do all
these kinds of things. It got so that everybody right now, they
will start laughing, "I hate you too!" It rooted the hate out
of that word.
Riess: You're thinking about when there was so much disruption down on
campus .
Roderick: Oh, God! I got in the middle of some of it.
67
Riess: How?
Roderick: There at UC they hired a bunch of these minorities. Everybody
left. I was the high man on duty at UC. I'm telling you, there
were a couple of days there that I didn't know if I was going to
survive from one day to another.
Riess: You mean up at the garden?
Roderick: Yes. There were some blacks, but a lot of them, I think, were
probably Mexican. They practically destroyed the place, but I
kept two jumps ahead of them. They were going to kill me
because I put down everything absolutely accurate on their
papers.
This one kid worked two half -days. I put down at the
bottom of the paper where I added it up, "one day." But he
couldn't figure out that one-half and one-half made one whole.
They had this handle with a short chain, I'd say, about eighteen
inches long, with a big block of wood with big lead slugs
sticking out. He was twirling this around me, right around my
shoulders, right close to my head.
Riess: It sounds hideous, but it doesn't sound like it had anything to
do with the flower children. What was the problem?
Roderick: It was I was stealing time from them, and I was forcing them to
work, and I was the establishment, and I was this, that, and
everything else. This kid kept working this right up around me,
right close to my face, just missing my head by a few inches.
Finally, one of the other ones said, "Man, don't you know
what that thing is?" I said, "I don't know what that thing is."
The guy stopped, and there was one of these slugs out. I said,
"Oh, look, you lost one of these here. Here, have it back."
They couldn't believe it. I was "so stupid," you know. This is
the way I kept ahead of them.
Finally, they got down to one of the hothouses, and they
were smashing pots of plants. Unknown to them, they weren't
very desirable plants; they were just filling space, really. I
raised some hell about that. I said, "On top of that, you know
you're already signed out for the rest of the day." "Oh,
whoopee," they had made their money. I refused to sign some of
these papers , the kids had done so much damage and so much
trouble.
68
There was a woman that was --these were high school kids--
she was still signing them in. I said, "No, I will not sign
those under any condition. If you sign them, that's your
problem, but I refuse. These kids are not any good."
Riess: Who sent them up in the first place?
Roderick: It was some kind of doing with the city or the state or
something, I don't know, to give these kids that were minorities
and of the lowest quality, trying to teach them--.
Their superiors who were sending them out, they thought
they were doing good, but they would never set down on them
themselves. Now, that was not doing the kids any good. I tried
to get a little bit of work out of them. But oh boy, I'm
telling you, that one day I thought for sure I was going to get
killed.
Upgrading Field Data
Roderick:
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick:
In the article in Pacific Horticulture Herbert Baker also said
that it became a project up at the garden to try to replace
material — I'd like to know how this works, particularly with the
California native section- -that they were trying to replace
material of horticultural origins with corresponding material
from wild sources.
Yes. We had things with no field data on it that was good
either for show or for class material. Then we'd get wild
materials, plant it out, and as soon as it got to flowering
size, then they would chop out the plant of no value.
So, it's not that the actual plant is inferior,
you don't know the history of it.
It's just that
Because these wild-collected plants, especially if you have,
say- -well, for instance mostly what was chopped out was
Rhododendrons in the rhododendron dell. A lot of those were
garden varieties. So what? But, for instance, now there are
three, I think, different collections of Rhododendron arboreum.
maybe one from way high in the mountains , one from mid-
elevation, maybe one from the lowest elevation of its area.
Each one of these will show some kind of little different
characters in it. Hard telling exactly what.
69
But there is the one in the Rhododendron world that is very
famous. It's called a self -topping Rhododendron arboreum. It's
a much smaller grower, undoubtedly from the top of its
elevation. So, this could be historically- -or hysterically, I
think now- -important , because it is called a self -topper because
it doesn't grow very tall.
Riess : Was the rhododendron dell in your charge?
Roderick: No, no. That was strictly for the Dr. Joseph Rock Collection.
Plus, there were lots and lots of hybrids planted in there. Now
they've chopped out almost all of the hybrids, which meant that
there's a lot less rhododendrons, but new ones are being
planted. Young ones are being planted here and there.
Incidentally, when I was cleaning out the old vault I found
copies of the Joseph Rock numbers. There were three copies. We
kept one there, I gave one to Strybing Arboretum, and I can't
remember now where the other one was sent. It was sent
someplace. But there are the three copies. It was all typed,
hand- typed, and duplicated from the old blue paper you put in
between, stencil -like . That was, I think, a hundred pages
thick. Somehow they had it clamped together that way. I
remember Anton told me to throw two of them away. I said, "God,
no!" I took one myself, and I gave that to Strybing Arboretum.
Riess: But you couldn't leave one at the garden because you knew it
would be thrown away?
Roderick: I had to fight Anton Christ to keep the letter I told you about,
the letter about the dawn redwoods, to keep him from burning
that up. He said, "God, they can't leave that around!" I said,
"That's history." There were May Blos's drawings of nicotiana
for Goodspeed's book, The Genus Nicotiana.
Horticultural Characters^/
Riess: Did Goodspeed come up to the garden?
Roderick: Setchell I never met, but Goodspeed used to come up there once
in awhile, and all the staff hated him because of some of the
.stupid things that he'd pull. They always had a vegetable
garden, and he'd make the staff pull up tomato plants and put
them on the table so he could pick the ripe ones off and then
throw the rest away. You know, things this way.
70
Riess: It sounds like this business draws a lot of peculiar people.
Roderick: In the horticultural world there are some real weirdos, and I
guess I'm at the center of all of them.
Riess: No, no. You're going to be the norm for all of this! [laughter]
How about James West? Did you ever meet him?
Roderick: I heard a lot about him. No, I never met him. The thing I do
know is that Art Menzies had several letters from him. Now,
where they are I don't know. But West mainly corresponded with
Mrs. Blake. When Mrs. Blake died, all those letters where taken
out and burned.
Riess: I heard that, too.
Roderick: Boy, that would sure be a loss.
Riess: Burned for tidying-up purposes?
Roderick: I don't know. This is what I still don't know. They must have
been in her garden room where she kept her records, and I don't
know for sure who burned them. But anyhow, they were burned.
Riess: What is all this mystery about James West?
Roderick: Well, he was a mystery himself. Why did he call himself James
West when he lived here? He was a count or something like that.
He was of noble birth. When he went back to Austria- -or was it
Germany? --he took up his title again. But why did he call
himself a completely different name while he was here? He was
supposedly, from a couple of pictures I've seen, it looked like
he was a very small person but wiry. Looked like he'd be one of
these feisty little fellows.
Riess: And a rock gardener.
Roderick: And a rock gardener and a cactus nut and all of this. He must
have been a fascinating person. I would have loved to have met
him.
Riess: I know. He would be on your list of plant explorers?.
Roderick: No. I stop at the turn of the century. That leaves out Marcus
Jones, one of the screwiest of all plant collectors and
explorers.
Riess: How did you get money for your section over the years? How did
you go back to the bosses and say, "I need more money?"
71
Roderick: Well, I finally found out a way of working Anton Christ, though
it would take about six months. I'd get a good idea, and I
needed some materials, and I would get him out there and show
him what I was working out, and would say, "Don't you think it's
a good idea?" He would say, "Well, we can't afford it," and,
"Yeah, it's a good idea."
I'd keep hounding on this and hounding on it. I would
never say very much, just a couple of words so he knew back in
his mind. Finally, after about six months, I would say, "Anton,
don't you remember you said you would get me a load of gravel to
start such and such a program?" He would say, "Oh, yes. I'll
go see about it right now!" That's the way I worked him.
Riess: So he sort of knew that somewhere along the way he had said yes,
but he wasn't sure about how or when?
Roderick: Yes, but if you'd come right out and ask him, "No way."
Flood and Frost at the Garden
Riess: Let's just do a quick run-down on disasters in the garden.
Apparently in 1961 temperature got up to 105 degrees. That
wouldn't be a disaster for your natives, would it?
Roderick: No. The big disaster of that period was the Christmas flood of
1964. It washed out whole gullies and everything. I packed
rocks around in washouts from Strawberry Creek.
Riess: When it started happening, you were there working day and night?
Roderick: I tried to get to the garden during the flood itself. When I
got up to about the swimming pools, these big rocks were coming
washing down the road. I was able to get around a couple of
them, but it looked like the road was washed out, and I didn't
hardly dare to try to get around in that. I backed up to the
parking area where I could turn around and get back out. I
never did get up there during the flood itself.
The next day, when it went down, I was up there, and from
then on I was into everything helping out- -the native area
wasn't as badly damaged as the pond above Rhododendron Dell, and
there were several other places, trees down here and there — and
trying to help clean up the messes.
72
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick;
Then in December 1972 came the "great freeze." Immediately
after the freeze the rain came. In the native areas it was the
desert plants and the southern California things, low-rainfall
plants. They survived the frostbite well- -yes, their foliage
was pretty badly damaged- -but then there was so much water in
the ground that the roots rotted. We lost quite a bit from the
frost, but it was more the roots; the things that we lost were
those that were rotted out, rather than the things that were
frozen.
I thought it was the other way around: that there was so much
water first, and everything was super-saturated. The cells were
a hundred percent water. And then along came the freeze and
they burst.
It could have been it rained before. I can't tell you that now.
But it was the rain afterwards. For instance, in the cactus
garden, yes, some of those great big five, six, seven- ton plants
were just melted.
There was this tall, slender cactus. It must have been
fifteen or twenty feet tall, if not taller, with arms. There
were two plants side by side. They withstood the frost, but
then the super- saturated soil gave away under them, and they
fell over. One six -hundred -pound arm was still left undamaged.
It took eight of us, I think it was, with heavy pipes and lots
of burlap to pick that piece up and get it up. We finally got
it rooted, and it's now about ten feet tall.
That's a splendid success story.
African Hill was a horrible mess after the big freeze.
So, you all worked together on that.
I was any place where they bothered to push me.
everything.
I was into
The South African plants, I think, more than the cactus,
the stench for weeks was beyond belief from those melted plants.
It was just sickening. It was such a horrible, funny stench.
You can't call it anything but a stench. You can't describe the
odor. It was not the stench of rotted animal flesh. It wasn't
chicken manure or pig manure or cow manure stench. It was
something completely different. It was a stench that you just
could hardly stand it, but yet it was an interesting and
fascinating odor.
73
Riess: Did they try to take the pieces away, or did they just let them
sink in?
Roderick: A lot of them, you just couldn't pick them up, they were such
gooey messes. But what was solid enough we did take it out. At
that time we dumped it behind the barn. Now it's all hauled
away. At that time you just dumped. But it took tons of
material from those cactus.
Riess: It's not composted now?
Roderick: Now, they're trying to cover it all up, and they're making it
into the Mexican area.
Riess: I see. But when you were talking about hauling things away--.
Roderick: Yes, they try to make wood chips out of a lot of the stuff, but
so much of that has got a lot of weed seeds in it, and we don't
want any more of that. If I can't pull a weed before the seeds
are anywhere near mature, it goes into plastic bags, and they
take it to the dump.
Mather Redwood Grove
Riess: Did you have any involvement with the Mather Grove?
Roderick: I started that! I kept screeching about that and screeching
about, "Oh, how I'd love to have that," but it was part of the
Rad [Radiation] Lab property. Found out that the Rad Lab didn't
want anything to do with it. It took quite a few years before
they put a fence in to keep us undesirable people out of Rad Lab
country .
Then they couldn't do anything for help on it, to get help
to work on it, but I got Boy Scouts that had to have for a merit
badge this stuff about public improvement, or something that
way. The first thing I had done was to break the dead limbs
off. You couldn't crawl through there. It was limbs right to
the ground .
Riess: You had the Boy Scouts climb the trees?
Roderick: They didn't climb. Everything was from the ground. With the
pole they would knock it out, and then I'd have them pile it all
up. It was a horrible, heavy job. It took, I think, three
74
different batches of boys to do that- -three or four, something
that way.
But the other interesting thing--. Those are man-planted,
but down at the head of the canyon, down below the Botanical
Garden on the far side of the canyon, there's another grove.
Those trees were planted the same year. The ones at the head of
the canyon are twice the size of the ones that were in that
Mather Grove. The fog would come up in the summertime and come
up into the grove at the head of the canyon, but the Mather
Grove would be in full sun, no fog. That moisture made all the
difference. The ones in the head of the grove dropped all their
limbs, and you could walk through there, while this one held
them all.
Riess:
We removed half the trees after that. That cost money, if
I remember rightly. But by this time they were getting things
really going. There was the little spring: I'd run that down
one place. And the cutest little part-time spring — only in the
wintertime- -was where they made the amphitheater. They enlarged
that, and the best trees were right there. They had to take
those out. But that was one of the ways of getting money to do
some of this other stuff. Making it useful to other parts of
the campus made all the difference in the world.
Well, there was a success. You were named University of
California Man of the Year in 1974. What was that award for?
Roderick: I don't remember why. I guess it was because I furnished class
material. I don't know, [laughs] I remember getting that.
It's somewhere around in this house. Somebody ran across one of
those the other day and sent it to me and it's laying around
here somewhere. I forgot all about it.
"Retirement"
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Now, Wayne Roderick, I've come to the end of my questions about
the Botanical Garden. What do you think of as your great
achievements there? Is there anything you'd like to add?
I enjoyed it.
there .
What happened?
I wish I could have worked till I retired from
75
Roderick: Well, at that time there was the University retirement system,
which was terrible, bad, very poor. If I had worked there for
ten more years it would have been only a few more dollars a
month for retirement pay. If I went up to the Regional Park's
Botanic Garden, and I worked there only six years, and it was
two hundred dollars , it was several times more than what I would
have gotten at UC at that time for retirement.
Riess: But you couldn't negotiate that?
Roderick: That was still at that time strictly University retirement.
Finally, about five years after I had left there, they changed
to the state retirement system, which costs me now a couple
hundred dollars a month. I would have stayed there except for
that retirement.
Riess: Have you maintained your involvement with UC?
Roderick: [laughs] I know where the keys are. Last time I talked with Bob
Ornduff about looking at his personal hothouse of bulbs. He
said, "Oh, good. Did you see this, did you see that?" Or, "You
know where the keys are, go do it yourself. Don't bother me."
I get that from one or two of them every so often.
I try never to do anything without the person knowing what
I'm doing. Most of the time it's, "Oh, good, good." It's nice
to feel good when I go there. Like last Tuesday I went and
showed my pictures that I just took in Turkey, because they were
getting seeds and starts on little things I brought back.
Riess: You showed slides?
Roderick: Yes, in the classroom. They darken it and they bring their
lunches and eat their lunches and look at the slides. The
volunteers and the docents come in too. It's so nice. I saw
two of the docents on Tuesday who had been there since the start
of the docent program. They're still going on there at the
garden after all those years.
Riess: When the docents are trained, do they go through the sections
and spend a period of time with the head of each section, so
that you would have had a few weeks with them?
Roderick: I haven't been involved with that now for several years, but I
used to give one lecture every year on the Indian uses for that
part of their education.
Riess:
The docent program started--
76
Roderick: --way back. I can tell you that much.
Riess: The decent program at Strybing, a two-year decent training
class, started in 1974. But it was earlier at UC? f
Roderick: No, about the same time if I remember rightly. All the people
that have been involved in that- -the instructors, the head of
it, and all this --they always have had some nice people. Though
many of the persons that take the training never go on.
Riess: You mean they do it for their own interest?
Roderick: I think that. I think now that you have to pay to take the
training, to pay for the instructors.
Some of the docents are just so involved that they can't
leave. They've got to go back and back and back. I know
several persons like that. Like Tuesday there were the two
ladies that went way back to the beginning up there at UC. One
of the women that volunteers part-time up at Tilden, she can't
come all the time because she's so much involved with the
Oakland Museum.
Riess: Well, the Botanical Garden sounds like a wonderful time in your
life.
Roderick: Yes. What an experience. Your avocation and vocation are one
and the same- -to work with plants, especially wild plants.
Riess: When you were up there you were also getting more involved with
rock gardens and all the organizations that you belong to. Or
did that come later?
Roderick: I tried to keep away. I was doing too darn many things, and I
still couldn't resist trying to help out somewhere.
Wayne Roderick reading Lester Rowntree's Hardy Calif ornians . 1975.
77
IV NATIVE PLANTS
[Interview 3: May 31, 1990 ]////
Tilden Park Botanic Garden. William Penn Mott. and Friends
Roderick: The California Native Plant Society- -really , it was just a group
of people trying to save the Botanic Garden at Tilden Park from
Mott tearing it down and trying to move it.
Riess: Is that a fair summary of William Penn Mott's intention?
Roderick: Mott knew nothing about plant material. He was a person for
recreation. (Incidentally, he lives only two houses from me,
just behind you. Thank goodness he's on another street.) Mott
couldn't control James Roof, and the only way he could do it was
to get rid of the Botanic Garden. He was pretty much towards
doing this when a whole group of people- -and I got involved in
this, too --had these meetings [in 1962] to save the garden.
Riess: They called themselves Friends of the Regional Parks Botanic
Garden.
Roderick: Yes. The first big meeting they had with Mott and his henchmen,
we got Dr. Leo Brewer to start out with everything. He got up,
and he started in, and Mott jumped up and said, "Now, listen,
you have to make this very short because we are a very important
organization. We have two million dollars we will have to work
with." Leo Brewer said, "Well, then, you'll have to listen to
me because I'm the head for the University of the Science
Foundation, and I have fourteen million dollars to work with!"
[laughs] You should have seen the air go out of Mott.
^•William Penn Mott, a graduate of UC Berkeley in landscape architecture,
was Superintendent of Parks for Oakland, 1946-1962; General Manager, East Bay
Regional Parks, 1962-1967; Director, California State Department of Parks and
Recreation, 1967-1975; and Director, National Park Service, 1985-1989.
78
Riess: In fact that meeting took place at Mulford Hall, didn't it, on
the Berkeley campus?
Roderick: There was one meeting there, and there was one up here at the
Brazilian Room [in Tilden Park]. I think in 1962 it was at
Mulford Hall, and in 1972 there was a meeting about the big
freeze up at the Brazilian Room. Poor Mott, every time he
opened his mouth at that meeting [1962] he got slapped down.
After that he became the head of the state parks, and he
was causing so much destruction--. I found his one dissenting
vote on the Park Commission and got him to give a lecture to--
by this time, it was the Native Plant Society. It was so good
that everybody else got him to come lecture, and this was the
one way we kept Mott under control as the head of the state
parks .
Riess: What do you mean by the "his one dissenting vote?"
Roderick: During the uprising at the University the state government
decided they had to give a graduate student some say in
Sacramento. So they thought, "Well, here's a forestry graduate
student, we'll put him on the Park Commission," not knowing that
he was going to be the dissenting vote all along. They didn't
dare to throw him out. This young fellow, whose name was John
Bonickson, he fought and fought to try to keep Mott from
destroying.
For instance, there was this big chunk of land in the Los
Angeles area, the last natural grassland left- -I mean our native
grasses, not introduced- -and Mott wanted to take it and make, I
think it was, two golf courses, or else one golf course and then
two recreation areas for children, swimming pools and merry-go-
rounds and such things as this, with our last natural grassland.
Riess: That was just ignorance about native plants?
Roderick: I don't think Mott knew anything about plant material, not
necessarily just about native plants, but everything else. He
was strictly recreation. All he could think of was getting
things for picnic grounds and things this way.
Riess: So, in fact, do you think that eventually he came to appreciate
the role that CNPS took as a kind of gadfly? Or do you always
think of him as an adversary?
Roderick: Every time he sees me he turns his back to get away from me as
fast as possible! [laughs]
79
Riess: How did this group of people get together, Leo Brewer and so on?
I know there were some splendid people in the early days of
CNPS.
Roderick: There were the Fruges and the Flemings and the Burrs. They were
the number one people, and they said it was such a good group- -
after we got Mott to leave the Botanic Garden alone and let it
go on and stay in operation- -they said it was such a good group
that we had, let's make it into something permanent and call it
the California Native Plant Society.
Riess: Who pulled them together in the first place?
Roderick: I think you can say it was Jim [Roof] , because he was close
friends with the Flemings and with the Fruges.
Riess: Was this August Fruge?
Roderick: Yes. And then Helen-Mar Beard and I down at UC. I'm trying to
think- -there' s one or two other persons in on that.
Riess: You mean in the founding group?
Roderick: In the founding group. I think it was the women. I think it
was Susan Fruge and Jenny Fleming and Joyce Burr that really
brought everybody together.
But it certainly made a fine group and made a good
organization. I'm very pleased to say I'm a member of it.
Riess: In fact a Fellow of the California Native Plant Society, which
is a great honor.
Ledvard Stebbins. and Leadership. CNPS
Riess: The first CNPS president was Mac [Watson] Laetsch.
as director of the UC Botanical Garden.
You knew him
Roderick: He was not very practical. Laetsch tried several new things at
the Garden and most did not work well. It cost the garden
thousands and thousands of dollars. The one thing left of his
is that gigantic tropical house, and it's too tall to do any
good- -all the heat's up above. They put blowers in there to try
to blow the heat down, but they still couldn't get the heat down
to where it was really needed. They worked it all over. I
80
think now they've got heating cables in the soil to try to keep
the plants alive.
Riess: But as president of the California Native Plant Society?
Roderick: He was only a short time, if I remember rightly. The one that
really brought it together was Ledyard Stebbins. Boy, he was a
working fool.
Riess: He's a geneticist.
Roderick: Yes. What a guy. What a character, too.
Riess: Tell me about him.
Roderick: Most of the time he was so energetic, he was just pushing
everyone to get things going. If it didn't get going, boy could
he throw tantrums .
Riess: Ornduff was CNPS president next, and then John Sawyer.
Roderick: Yes. Ornduff was only for a very short time. Sawyer was, I
think, about three years. I don't think that Bob Ornduff was
there more than about a year.
Riess: Sounds like a big job for anyone.
Roderick: You've got to figure on, to do a good job of something that way,
about twenty hours a week. I know because several of those
different presidents were persons I knew well, and I know how
much time they took. In fact, the person in right now is a very
good friend of mine. Suzanne [Schettler] is just going crazy.
She can't hardly sit down. She's going day and night. Cal Hort
was the same way. It takes hours of time. They tried to get me
to be the president of California Horticultural Society, and I
said no way. I want my sleep. You've got to stay up until at
least ten o'clock every night to try to keep up on these things.
Riess: Can't you delegate?
Roderick: You do that, but there's all these letters that have to be
written and answered. Organizations this way where you're
spread out all over the countryside rather than just one little
group, it's either telephone calls or writing notes or letters
to different ones to keep them seeing that everything is going
correctly. Your committees- -you're supposed to go to those
meetings. You've got to figure at least twenty hours a week to
do a decent job.
81
Riess :
Roderick
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess :
Roderick:
Yes, I should think so. The matter of having an executive
director must keep coming up. You know, a paid position.
Now whether the person is paid there in Sacramento- -I don't
know.
But they are not the president.
No. The president is down on the Hastings Preserve, Suzanne
Schettler. I see her about once a month here in San Francisco,
and she says it's a three-hour drive each way.
Back to Stebbins. Tell me more about him.
He has so many thoughts, it's unbelievable, and he goes so many
directions all at the same time, I hate to think about trying to
say what all he did do and didn't do. It wasn't very much what
he didn't do. He was just a go-getter in every direction you
can think of.
Well, think of some of those directions,
big issue for CNPS?
Was raising money a
I think that was before his time, starting to really raise the
money .
I think it was Laetsch that got this Mary Wollers in, and
she got the job of being secretary. They got an office and a
telephone, and all of a sudden we found out that we were head-
over-heels into debt! Between the Botanic Garden in Tilden and
at UC we got all of our surplus plant material that was in
containers and hurriedly had a plant sale to try to get out of
debt.
We got enough that first time to pay all the bills that had
to be paid, like the telephone bill and the rent and all that.
We got that paid. We never did get enough, I don't think, for a
couple of more years to pay off wages.
And then you abandoned the idea of the secretary?
The secretary and all that was all volunteer for a long time,
until finally when we got into doing an inventory of the rare
and endangered plants [An Inventory of the Rare and Endangered
Plants of California! we had to have a botanist, and that is
still our only paid person.
Exactly when they started making these posters of the
wildf lowers- -. That has really made a lot of money and is what
82
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
has kept the organization financially in very good shape for
paying our botanist. And, of course, now we have to pay office
space and so forth up in Sacramento.
The reason we went to Sacramento is because we got so
politically powerful on saving plants that the state wants us to
help them out on seeing about, like, making new highways. Are
they going to go through a rare plant area? Things like that.
Is it the state that wants you, or have you become so much of a
presence that they hardly dare proceed without you?
It's probably our presence. They have been quite nice trying to
help out and make certain that important places in the state--.
Because the voice of the combined CNPS membership would be very
loud?
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Yes.
How has it expanded? It started out as a Bay Area group.
Yes. There's something like twenty -seven or twenty -eight
chapters now throughout the state. Some of them are very
important; some of them are still just, more or less, a little
organization being a bunch of friends and having a good time.
Did Stebbins go into the hinterlands and create new groups?
did new groups form?
How
Riess:
I can't quite tell you so much on that. But it was Stebbins
that went ahead and really--. He went all over the state
lecturing, and with his energetic personality, people couldn't
say no! "Yes, we've got to jump on the bandwagon right now!"
you know. I think it was just his energetic ways that got the
organization really going.
He was president from '66 through '72, and also he was in the UC
Davis Genetics Department. I guess he was only able to give a
small portion of his time to the Native Plant Society.
His little, small portion was like a full time on anybody else.
You can't believe what that gentleman could do! I have seen him
twice throw tantrums. One time I was a little bit disgusted,
but it was because he was giving a lecture and the projectors--
I think it took the third one before he got one going. And he
was very much upset.
Had you known him before the native plant group?
83
Roderick: Slightly. I knew him as Professor Stebbins. I didn't know him
personally. I knew him as soon as I saw him, you know. Then,
when he took over, I wondered, "My God, how is that guy going to
ever give any time?" Especially living up there. But what a
dynamo !
Inventory of Rare and Endangered Plants of California
Riess: How did the rare and endangered plant survey come about?
Roderick: They had this great big meeting up at Davis that I was brought
in on, too, on the rare plants, and where they were, and what
you thought of this one, or is that too common? and things this
way. It was a whole weekend. I think there were about a
hundred, hundred- and- fifty people that were working on that.
Piles and piles of maps. We took over the whole ground floor of
one big building. We took all the classrooms. It was that many
people .
Riess : What kind of people were brought in? You were a natural because
you were out in the field from year to year, and you could see
populations of plants diminishing or whatever. What other
people?
Roderick: It was surprising. A lot of graduate students. Lots and lots
of botanists from all over the state. This is how I got to meet
some of these other people around and became friends with them
all in one place. We ate together and took over one of the
dormitories. We really took over that whole campus,
practically.
Riess: The task was to make a list of plants that were rare?
Roderick: They started in from that. They had maps. We plotted them out
on maps . Maybe four or five people would come and put their
knowledge in on one species of a plant: "Oh no, I don't know it
there, but I know it over here." That was the basis.
Riess: Did those botanists have maps in their heads? Or do they carry
around maps marked with finds?
Roderick: A few had a little bit maybe of that, but mostly it was what
thly had in their brain.
Riess: Where do you keep your information, Wayne?
i
84
Roderick: I have stacks of maps to go look at, but I can remember, and I
have certain places that I keep going back to year after year
after year. In a little over a week I'm going to go up to Modoc
County if the weather improves. I haven't been up there for
years, but I bet I can find some of those places I always v
thought were so nice .
Riess: You don't keep notes?
Roderick: I lose them. I can't keep them! I lose them. I've lost one
address of a letter that I desperately need to write. These
people asked for information while I was in Europe this spring.
When I came home, I found their letter. I finally sat down and
took time to write to them- -they are in Australia. I'm not sure
what I did wrong, but anyhow, the letter came back. It took six
weeks for it to get back! And I had thrown their letter away--
the original. So now I don't know what was wrong.
Riess: When you got together with this group up in Davis and started on
the inventory, was there any discussion then on the ethics of
plant and seed collecting? How has that changed over the years?
Roderick: When I started out I just collected, for the very first three or
four months, indiscriminately.
Riess: You mean you'd actually take plants?
Roderick: I'd take plants and seed, however I could get it. There was so
little at the University at that time. Then I got to the place
where I'd be much more careful, collect at a time I knew would
be good to collect, and collect preferably cuttings and seeds.
Plants- -especially at the edge of desert or something that way,
there's very little chance of digging a plant and getting it to
grow. It's much better to start with seed and get it adapted to
our climate from the start and hope that they're going to make
it.
The more I went, the longer I went, the more careful I
became as to what I collected, and making certain- -trying to
round out a collection. Get your trees, the main understory or
edge of that, and then the little perennials and small plants
that grew underneath everything. But mainly at UC I still tried
to collect things that were best for class material.
Riess: You're contrasting that with what you did at the Regional Parks,
where you were creating a whole plant community.
85
Roderick: Yes. Jim Roof was only mostly interested in woody plants. I
started in trying to collect the other plants that would fit in
with what was already in the garden.
Riess: He had all those manzanitas and trees.
Roderick: Yes, the greatest collection at that time of manzanitas. And
you looked under the manzanitas and there was nothing! I wanted
to bring in all the things that would blend in and make it more
of a natural -looking area.
Propagating the Rare and Endangered
Riess: At the Botanic Garden there are some rare and endangered plants.
Not only do the labels say as much, but they say where they were
collected from. I don't understand the thinking behind this.
Roderick: Always on those labels, where it was collected could be such a
wide area, there was no way anybody could find the plants.
But it's turning out that one of the greatest things that
has ever happened was the collecting of these rare and
endangered plants, some of them now extinct in the wild, two of
which have been propagated by Tilden and have been planted back
out where they had originally been found. We've got up there, I
think it is, about a hundred- and- fifty rare and endangered
plants. There are about five or six that are extinct now in the
wild.
Riess: With your volunteers you are able to propagate them?
Roderick: The volunteers don't do much that way. What they do is
propagate for selling.
It is amazing how many people want to take and get some of
these rare and endangered plants. We tried for awhile to get
people to register before they could take one or buy one of
them. It's surprising how many people were able to do that.
Unfortunately, when they took them home some of these were
planted in good spots, but others would have water coming off
from, say, neighbors' places or from sidewalks and roofs, and
would drown out a lot of these. Or else they'd grow too big for
the person. That did not prove too satisfactory. We just keep
trying now to propagate . We always keep one or two back as a
reserve in case something happens to the parent plant.
86
We're trying more and more to go to cuttings or seed. It's
so much easier. You don't do any damage that you can see to the
rare plant. When I'm out collecting seed or cuttings, or if I
dig a plant or two, I try never to take more than one percent of
the seed, or whatever it is. That way you know you can't do any
damage .
Riess: When you were first thinking about the rare plant inventory
project, was the intention to do anything more than identify?
Roderick: Yes, because that main, big meeting was to not only identify,
but to place on the maps --these piles and piles of maps that
they had, geological maps- -the precise location of these. That
was to be kept by the society. I think that they were going to
make maps to send out to the state and things this way.
I think they sent sets of maps to several organizations,
and with the bulk we could see it was getting into unbelievable
expense. So that's when they started to publish the book on the
rare and endangered. That way, other organizations could look
up on their own, and then they could get their own maps and
pinpoint these plants that had to be watched.
Riess: That was the idea: to watch the plants, to make sure that they
were not decreasing, to make sure that road cuts didn't go
through .
Roderick: Or houses built on them.
Riess: But it was never to propagate and increase?
Roderick: No. That has been more the Botanic Garden. Now, I can't tell
you about the whole state. But at UC and Tilden, both of us try
to have a lot of these rare plants . We also take and look for
good horticultural plants, too, and that's what we start to
propagate and to sell. Or, for instance, we give to nurseries
to propagate.
Riess: You talk about using those maps for your lobbying purposes.
That brings up the whole question of preserves.
Roderick: And it works a great deal with Nature Conservancy. They,
though, are trying to get big tracts of land, and not only
plants but animals and birds- -anything that's being endangered.
The Conservancy and the Native Plant Society have worked quite
closely together.
Riess: The Conservancy did a California survey too.
87
Roderick: Yes. I think most of it is based on our survey. But they have
to look at something quite a bit different. They don't just
look at plants. They look at everything.
Inventory of California Natural Areas
Riess: The CNPS also did an inventory of California natural areas.
What was that?
Roderick: Les [Leslie] Hood was the one that was over that. It was taking
in a lot to do with the animals, the fauna as well as the flora.
It got down to just a few persons where they could work closely
together and figure this out. It has been finished. I have
seen a couple of the books. I think it's in ten or twelve books
on these areas. Exactly where and how that is going on, I don't
know. It is very expensive to buy the set of books. It was
more done for counties and for the state — the state highways- -
more that way than it was for the average person.
Riess: They are paid by the state to do these projects, then?
Roderick: Some, yes. There was some of the license plate money. But I
can't tell you too much, because I got, more or less, out. I
got so involved when I got there at Tilden, when I started to
work there, that I couldn't do a lot of this stuff. I went to
work at six in the morning and then I'd come home early in the
afternoon where it was quiet. I'd sit down with some of these
papers I had to try to keep up on. But my main thing was trying
to figure out how to get the Tilden out of chaotic conditions .
I just couldn't think good enough to be of any help to other
people .
Riess: I want to come back to Tilden, but let me just continue to check
off a couple more of these projects where I think you might have
been involved. Putting together The Inventory of California
Natural Areas . was that what led to discovering such things as
vernal pools, Boggs Lake?
Roderick: Of course, we all knew that vernal pools were so unique to this
part of the world that we all kept thinking on vernal pools all
the time. In fact, I think I wrote the first article on how to
grow vernal pool plants and how the seeds germinated and so
forth. Nobody had ever tried, and I did.
I was just like everybody else: we knew about these vernal
pools; we knew that the biggest share of them had already been
88
plowed up and destroyed and built on, or things that way. I
think what was right on the back of everybody's mind was vernal
pools! Vernal pools! "We've got to do something!"
Riess: Actually, as you say that, it seems obviously very important to
enlist the interest of farmers in the Native Plant Society. Has
that happened?
Roderick: A lot of farmers. But still, a lot of the farmers — most of them
have this land that has already been destroyed or plowed, and
they can't see it.
//#
Roderick: A lot of the farmers can see all of this, and if they do have a
spot that hasn't been ever touched, and there is something
unusual on it, most of them are very happy to take and protect
what they do have.
Riess: Are taxes mitigated on those areas for people who are taking
something out of cultivation to save the plants?
Roderick: I think there's something on that, but I haven't followed that.
Riess: It's interesting- -all the ramifications.
Roderick: When I retired I just kind of lost touch with some of these
things and have never gotten back into them.
Riess: It sounds like you don't need to; there's so much enthusiasm for
native plants now.
Roderick: Oh, boy, there's a lot. And it is amazing how so many of the
farmers do try to cooperate. Yes, you do find one that is just
absolutely the opposite, who will say that it is one of the most
horrible organizations that ever was, and all this. For
instance, one area south of Livermore that we go to a lot,
there's some rare plant, and this one fellow bought the
property, and you can't believe how mean he is. He'll kill: "If
I catch you on my property, I'll shoot!"
Riess: He wouldn't even allow you to dig up the plants and remove them
to save them?
Roderick: We've tried. It doesn't like to be moved. It is very
restricted as to its soil. I even brought the soil in, and I
can't make it happy. And if I can't make a plant happy- -
Riess: Who can? [laughs]
89
Roderick: But this guy, he doesn't give a damn. He says, "My property,
and I don't want anybody on my property."
Collecting on Public Lands
Riess: Have you worked with the Bureau of Land Management in these
efforts?
Roderick: Way back I used to try to, and they were just so uncooperative.
But now they are making quite an about-face. I haven't really
gotten too far involved.
Way back I got in bad with the Forest Service. Boy, I'm
telling you, did they ever stop me from trying to ever go on
Forest Service land for collecting!
Riess: How did you actually alienate them?
Roderick: Up in Siskiyou County there was a proposed wilderness area
called Red Buttes. All of a sudden the Forest Service was
having a secret clear-cut sale on what was called Thompson
Creek, which headwatered on Red Butte. I heard about this and I
wrote a dirty letter and got it in there the day before, I
guess, the secret clear-cut sale.
Riess: You wrote to the State Department of Forestry?
Roderick: I wrote to the [United States] Forest Service headquarters in
San Francisco. Right away after this I had to have my botanical
collecting permit renewed. I had to give them in advance what I
wanted to collect, precisely the plant, the precise location,
the precise day, and so forth, and they might give me a permit.
Riess: Harassment.
Roderick: Yes. From then on, yes. I have collected some small amounts
that nobody ever sees. And I've always been careful trying to
cover up my digging, if I'm doing any digging. I just keep out
of sight.
Riess: That sounds like you were being threatened personally. Did it
ever get down to a situation where you had to come in late at
night with a flashlight?
90
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick
Oh no, no. I don't ever go to that extreme of collecting. Of
course, I love collecting seed.
Another plant collecting opportunity, I understand, is plant
salvage at cemeteries, or at new bridge sites.
I had only ever gotten in one time that way, and I can't even
remember now where it got started. But it was down at
Vandenburg Air Force Base. They were extending the landing for
the shuttle. Yes, we did collect there. It wasn't a good time
of the year. Most of the things that I was interested in trying
to salvage, it was the wrong time for them. It was more summer,
and you needed, really, wintertime.
We did collect some stuff that we grew. Unfortunately, the
one plant that was rare was a very weedy thing, and the flower
was zero on it. I kind of got out of sight and collected a
couple of other things that were desirable for a botanic garden.
[ laughs ]
Generally speaking, in collecting things, three plants --if
you can't get one plant to grow out of three, you can't get a
hundred to grow. There's no sense in taking the whole quantity.
That goes back to my original question: were rules for the game
hammered out by CNPS? Was that something you would talk about
in the meetings?
Once in awhile that was talked out, but with myself I still
maintain that if you can't get one plant to grow out of three
there's no sense in going on.
Jim Roof, he did not know how to collect. He did not get
very many things to grow well. For instance, collecting
manzanita seedlings, instead of going real deep to get the root
where it's down trying to get to moisture, he'd just go down
three or four inches at the most and cut off 99 percent of the
roots. He didn't get very many to take. I only lost a few.
Again, manzanitas are so easy from cuttings, and you can get
better results and a better- looking plant.
Riess: Why would you get a better- looking plant from cuttings?
Riess:
Roderick:
Roderick:
Because you can get a straight trunk on it. The seedlings are
all twisted and gnarled. I found that quite often from the
seedlings I would get weight all on one side, and eventually
they get into undesirable soils, the roots stay rather shallow,
and quite often they fall over after they get good size.
Cuttings are so much easier and better.
91
Horticultural Value of Native Plants
Riess: When CNPS got started was also a time that we started being
aware in California of the need for planting natives to save
water. Which came first? A consciousness about water
preservation, or about plant preservation? How do you think
they worked together?
Roderick: There were a couple of native plant nurseries that were in- -one
of them I know for certain was in operation by 1955, I'd say.
This fellow had a garden all of California natives.
Riess: Who was that?
Roderick: That was Louis Edmonds out in Danville. When he really started
I have no way of knowing, but he's from way back. He was quite
well known, and people were interested.
When my family had the nursery in the late forties and
fifties, we always carried a few native plants.
Were you carrying them because you knew that water was a
problem?
West of Petaluma and Two Rock Valley has little water, and this
area should have dry gardens. We tried to encourage people to
use a lot of these drought- tolerant plants. But this one woman,
especially, she hauled water to water her cattle, but still, she
wanted roses and a little bit of lawn. Couldn't get it over to
her to plant the more drought- tolerant things.
Riess: Is that one intention in the native plants section of the
botanic gardens at Tilden and UC, to show people that it is
possible to have a flowery environment while working with native
and drought -tolerant plants? Is that the underlying intention?
Roderick: We like to take and show people that we do have some very
interesting plant material. But we all are watching for plants
that are very desirable for garden plants. Over at UC, Roger
Raiche has brought in quite a few things that are now becoming
popular for nurserymen to start propagating. We've turned out
several at Tilden, and we're going to be giving out cuttings
this fall of another, a Fremontia that we think is good enough
that we're going to give it a clonal name and give out cuttings.
Riess :
Roderick
92
Riess: I noticed that there is a big push now for Mimulas .
Roderick: Yes. That was from a Mr. Verity down at UCLA that spent a
lifetime hybridizing. I think he took some of Victor Reiter's
original hybrids and worked with them, plus the wild ones. The
only thing wrong with those is that they are rather short
lived, the ones that he produced. They are quite susceptible to
root rots. I think it's because he grew them only in sand,
granitic sand- -sharp, sharp drainage. He never had any problems
with the root fungus. I think this is why they are a little on
the weak side. It's because of that. Still, eliminating the
ones that are, planting them in heavier soil, if they were
susceptible to root fungus they would hurry up and die.
Riess: That kind of pathology work- -is that part of your work?
Roderick: These are some of the things that you have got to watch out for,
because most gardens are in heavier soils. Almost all the good
plants, native plants, are in very well-drained stuff. This is
how come so many of our better Ceanothus come from Rancho Santa
Ana Botanic Garden, because where they planted most of this
stuff was in the clayey soil, and what survived were the ones
that were adaptable or, I guess you could say, resistant to
fungus. These are some of the things that a lot of people have
not watched out for.
Riess: You mean people at the botanic gardens?
Roderick: Yes. And we found this one Fremontia that seems to be standing
up to fungus with no problem and low and mounding and easy to
grow. So instead of being a big tree it's going to be a small
garden plant.
Riess: It's not Fremontodendron?
Roderick: It's a Fremontodendron. It's one of the decumbens . but instead
of being very, very hairy- -fuzzy, you could say- -this is almost
glabrous. Cuttings have been rooted in the spring. You always
say "only in the fall," but these were rooted in the spring. So
we think it's got good possibilities.
Riess: The fact that you say "we think" reminds me that you are really
not in the least bit retired. You're not supposed to be
thinking still! You retired in 1983! [laughs]
Roderick: I tell people I'm retarded. I'm too stupid to stop! [laugh]
93
Saving Natural Areas
Riess: In your vita you say that you've been involved in making a
couple of areas into preserves. We've been talking about
identifying all of these precious natural areas in California.
What have you been involved in?
Roderick: Again, the Forest Service doesn't like me very well. Up in the
Siskiyou Mountains there was the Cook and Green Pass. (I've
always wanted to know who Cook and Green were , but I never have
found out.) I kept seeing this on maps.
I was with Margaret and Loring Williams and Art Menzies the
first time. Margaret had been to England in '61 to the
International Rock Garden Society conference, and somebody asked
her to find a certain form of Cassiope martensiana. She found
that it had been collected on Mount Eddy, in the Mount Shasta
area.
Riess: Tell me who Margaret Williams is.
Roderick: Margaret is an amateur botanist, I guess you can say, and a good
horticulturist up in the Reno area. In fact, she's the one who
wrote The Rare and Endangered Plants of Nevada. When I go up to
the mountains in that part of the Sierra I go to Reno and stay
with her.
Anyway, we went up there, and we found out that there was a
road. No cars had gone on it for years. A four-wheel drive
once in awhile got up there. Well, I ruined a wheel, but we got
up there. We found out we were in the wrong place. It was too
hot and dry where the road ended. I kept talking about this
place called Cook and Green, I wanted to go see it. So we went
and looked it up afterwards . Turned out to be far more
interesting than we ever had dreamed about. I kept after that.
Finally went up there one year, and here was a big sign
saying that what trees were there were going to be logged off,
most of them not usable, they were so gnarled and twisted and
deformed from bad soils, and then they were going to plant
trees. Well, they'd have to wipe out the whole area- -a lot of
interesting plants, some of them rather rare. By this time the
CNPS was already started. We got Ledyard and a whole bunch of
botanists to go up there and look around. They flipped over the
area and started to write letters, and we got that stopped.
94
Riess:
Let's see, there was one other place. Then eventually,
again near Mount Eddy, was this place called Cedar Lake. In
this area it's the Port Orford cedar, as it's commonly called—
Lawson Cypress. Found out a big clear cut sale was gping to be
on a side of Mount Eddy. Then a mile corridor and a square mile
at the end of that was to be logged for these Port Orford
cedars . And not for us : they were to be logged and sent to
Japan for repair of the old shrines, the ancient shrines.
I decided, "To heck with Japan and their shrines. They can
use something else." These are the only Port Orford cedars --
they are way out of place, and not diseased. I said that this
should be preserved. Not only that, but around this little
Cedar Lake there are seven genera—not species, genera — of
ericaceous plants and a big bog of Darlingtonias , the cobra
plants.
My letter put the monkey wrench in the gears for that,
[laughs] There were enough other people screaming about that,
and I got John Sawyer to write the letter that really did the
work. He was supposedly such a brilliant botanist, but he said,
"Seven genera? That's a common thing!" I still can't believe
that anybody could be that naive. But anyhow, he wrote the
letter that this was a genetic pool that should be saved for the
future. That was enough to make the Forest Service stand up and
take notice. They have set that aside now, and it is going to
be a preserve for a certain area.
Also, it was Margaret Williams that showed me Winnemucca
Lake up off of Carson Pass. I took lots and lots of different
groups up there and showed them this area. That now is more or
less of a preserve. There's something else I got my nose into.
I can't remember now what it was.
It sounds like you didn't meet with a lot of strenuous
opposition.
Roderick: Most of the time, no.
Riess: That's good. You're not welcome in Japan anymore, probably,
because of the shrines [laughs].
Roderick: I don't know, because I didn't say "darn"; I used quite strong
language. They can use other timbers.
Since all of this went on about these Port Orford cedars in
Del Norte County, and also a little bit of Siskiyou, the
government now has gone through and chopped down every last Port
95
Orford cedar in the surrounding diseased area to stop the fungus
from getting to Cedar Lake and affecting those trees. They were
trying to make a wider place. It was about a hundred miles, and
they were trying to make a wider place to make certain that we
don't lose those trees, because we're going to have to get seeds
from there to reforest all of western Oregon and northern
California.
Riess: Fascinating, really. That reminds me of what I read about
something called the "Franciscan strategy" of collecting. That
was James Roof's notion? You collect from the fringe of an area
so that you're collecting specimens- -"resulting in a collection
that features more plants now rare or extinct in their native
habitats." (You should be explaining this to me!) Also there
was the idea of collecting plants at the southern limit of their
range to have those genetically better adapted to warmer
conditions .
Roderick: Things that are coming down from the north. Things that come
from the south, southern plants, you collect from their northern
edge to try to get them more adapted to our climatic conditions
here.
Riess: What would be the reason for collecting on the outer range of a
plant's habitat, rather than where a plant is growing most
lushly?
Roderick: I can't quite think on that myself. When I'm into a patch of
something, I look for the most vigorous plant to get my cuttings
from. It has the best wood; it means it has less fungus
diseases or things that way around it.
Riess: There might be a philosophy that would say that you should get
the least vigorous that is surviving; that there is something in
the genetic makeup of the one that is surviving under the most
adverse conditions that should be saved because it has what it
takes .
Roderick: The only thing is that there the cuttings would be much more
difficult to get them to root. That's the thing I keep thinking
about. If I know something is very rare, and I'm taking
cuttings, I'll take from as many different plants as I can,
hoping to find one that is a little bit genetically easier to
propagate. I try my best never, unless there's some precise
reason, to take from only one plant.
1 For instance, I keep thinking of this one manzanita that I
just flipped over that Roger Raiche has collected and called
'Myrtle Wolf. It's a real pink flower, and of course Myrtle
Riess:
96
[Wolf] loves pink. I keep thinking of that one. That was such
a magnificent color combination of bluey- green foliage and these
beautiful pink flowers that I'm hoping it's going to be easy to
grow and propagate. I'll try to get it onto the market, because
it would really make a fine garden plant with that beautiful
show. That's why that particular one was collected.
But over all, when I go into an area, and I'm taking
cuttings, I generally look for the most vigorous. Or if it is
something rare, you take anything, but never chop the devil out
of one plant. This is why I like to take from various plants: I
don't hurt one, but also, you'll find one of them, maybe, is
genetically more easy to propagate.
Have you studied genetics?
Roderick: I've got books somewhere around here where I've had ray nose into
them.
I only recently got a T.V. Before that, when I didn't have
that, all these periodicals that we got at the UC Botanical
Garden, I'd bring them home, and that's what I did in the
evening. I read those and tried to keep up on all those things.
Carl Purdv. Theodore Pavne . and Lester Rowntree
Riess: Bob Ornduff said that Lester Rowntree and Carl Purdy and
Theodore Payne were three who stood out as being interested in
the horticultural value of California natives.
Roderick: Unfortunately, though, Carl Purdy was not only interested in
horticulture, but also in the mighty dollar. If he only
collected bulbs for horticulture it would have been great. But
he collected them during the Depression, and I can remember as a
kid, "If you buy a box of my Post Toasties, you're going to get
a free bulb." Or, "If you take a subscription to our magazine,
we'll give you ten free bulbs." That's how the biggest share of
his collecting went.
Riess: Who was he? Where was he from?
Roderick: He was up at Ukiah, up in the hills behind Ukiah. Exactly how
he got started, I can't quite tell you. I've never taken time
to read his book. I don't even have his book because I'm so
disgusted with him and the way he over-collected. In his book--
I did have this xerox given to me --he told in there how he
97
trained his collectors [so they went] from collecting from three
to four thousand bulbs a day to ten to twelve thousand bulbs a
day per man.
Riess: That's impossible!
whole place?
You mean he would just go and dig up the
Roderick: He sent a crew--. Up at the little village of Comptche in
Mendocino County I talked with an old lady- -I think her name was
Thompson, if I remember rightly—who was born and raised in that
village and that valley. She says that as a young girl, shortly
after the turn of the century, the hills were pink with
Ervthronium revolutum by the millions. She said it took his men
about ten years to completely wipe that population out. You
cannot see but a very few in a couple spots . Purdy dug them by
the millions and sold them by the millions, but not for
horticulture, mostly for giveaways. And those were people that
didn't know what they were getting and how to take care of them.
Riess: Who is Theodore Payne?
Roderick: Theodore Payne was an Englishman who absolutely loved the
natives. I don't know his background completely, but
undoubtedly he was a good businessman and made a lot of money- -
something like Louis Edmonds. I would add this Louis Edmonds in
that list of persons. Louis Edmonds was the engineer for C & H
Sugar Company, chief engineer. The native nursery was a hobby
more than anything else.
But Theodore Payne started this nursery, and seed
collecting. When he died he had a lot of friends following with
him, and they kept the place going and they are still in
business [Theodore Payne Foundation, in Los Angeles area] . They
hardly do any seed collecting. They buy almost all the seed
that they sell. But they do propagate a lot of plants for their
nurseries that they have.
Lester Rowntree- -she was mostly seed. She was a tiny,
little thing. She went with a burro all through the Sierra.
When she had her pack on that burro you couldn't see her, the
burro's head and ears were above her head, [laughing] I've seen
pictures of her and the burro.
Riess: Did you encounter her in your collecting?
Roderick: No, no. She was already eighty before I met her. I got
acquainted with her--. ////
98
Roderick: I think it was her eighty -seventh birthday, and a group of us
went and had a birthday party for her down on the preserve down
there in Carmel, the Hastings Preserve. She said she would not
have a birthday in a house. She would go out to the Hastings
Preserve and have a birthday party underneath the oak, trees. No
frills at all- -a couple pieces of dried fruit and some water and
that was it. And we spent the whole three or four hours with
her there sitting in the grasses.
That was the first time that I really enjoyed her. I had
talked with her more than once, but this was the most informal
way. I used to, then, go down and see her every so often.
That's where I got such a kick out of her. When they destroyed
her Lewisia rediviva spot she said, "I said strong words for a
Quaker! I said strong words!" And I heard that she could say
"hell" and "damn" as good as anybody else when she got mad.
Taxonomists
Riess: Ornduff also said something about taxonomy being developed on UC
campuses, Stanford, and Rancho Santa Ana. What does that mean?
Roderick: I don't know what he meant by that, because taxonomy goes way
back. [Edward Lee] Greene was the one who started it.
Riess: He started the Botanical Garden at Berkeley, on the campus.
Roderick: Yes. Then they had several other persons. Of course there was
Alice Eastwood, too, in on this. Between Greene and Alice
Eastwood they were splitting everything up. A lot of people
didn't like them.
In fact Marcus Jones with his sharp tongue was the one that
said two things. The first thing was, "All botanists are fools;
there's only a degree of difference between them." Then, when
Greene died, he published, "Since my last publication, several
notable botanists have died. Greene, the pest of all botanists,
died. If they dig a hole big enough to hold him and all of his
trivia, it's going to be a gigantic hole" --or something like
this.
Riess: Botanists spend too much time over trivia?
Roderick: A lot of them would take and split down till it was very
difficult to try to identify a plant.
99
There was also the Brandegees, Katherine and Townsend
Brandegee. The saying goes that Katherine Brandegee would be
happy if they could lump all species into one species in
California. Yet her husband is going on and describing new
species all the time. In fact it was Katherine Brandegee,
before she was a Brandegee, that hired Alice Eastwood in the
California Academy of Sciences.
There was a fellow- -Gustaf Eisen, I think his name was--
that was the head of the botany department [at the California
Academy of Sciences]. He's the one that brought in the
Carpenter ia. Fremont had discovered it, but it was Eisen that
brought it into cultivation. He was only at the Academy for a
short time. He left, and then Alice Eastwood took over.
Riess: I wonder why it is that there are so many fine women botanists.
Do you have any observations on women in botany?
Roderick: Most of them didn't go in for other things. Botany way back, I
think, was considered man's work, but then the men wanted to be
outdoors, and the women were more willing to stay in the
herbarium and set down and take the time of working things out.
I think this is more the way it is, rather than anything else.
I think it's just that they were willing to stay in and set in
one space and work with something until they got it finally
down.
Irja (Mrs. Walter) Knight and Wayne Roderick on a trip to the Fort Bragg dunes
area, 1965.
Photograph by Walter Knight
100
V TILDEN PARK BOTANIC GARDEN
Jim Roof
Riess: Lets get more specifically into your tenure at the Regional
Park's Botanic Garden, 1976-1983. Before you got up to Tilden,
had you been exchanging plants with Tilden when you were at UC?
Roderick: To a degree. Jim was a very difficult person to get along with.
Riess: Tell me about Jim.
Roderick: Well, it finally turned out that he had a brain tumor, one of
those very slow-acting ones. And I think this is one of the
reasons why he was such a strange person. For example, when we
went out on field trips together I just got cussed every time
I'd even look like I was going to take a cutting. And I mean
dirty cussing, not just plain cussing, but dirty cussing.
Riess: When was this?
Roderick: The first time would be when I started to work for UC- -probably
not later than 1961, because I started in 1960.
Riess: You would have been taken along by him?
Roderick: No. We'd go together. I learned right away that he was such an
unusual, strange person that I just didn't want to get too
close. There was something about this that I just couldn't get
too close to him. It was worse than I ever thought it was going
to be.
Riess: .But it sounds like there was a good arrangement between Tilden
and UC.
Roderick: It was great, but you couldn't do too much cooperating with him.
You never knew which way he was going to go or how he was going
to react to anything.
101
Riess: Did that change over the years?
Roderick: Yes, for the worse. When I took over I tried my best to keep
still and not to say very much, trying to keep friendly. Even
then, we couldn't--.
Riess: What were his strengths?
Roderick: Stories.
Riess: No, I mean in the garden.
Roderick: The one thing I didn't like, he did not design his paths well.
A lot of them- -they still have them—are very difficult. You
start out heading the direction you want, and before you know
it, the path is going the opposite way.
Riess: And that was deliberate?
Roderick: Yes, from what he said. He had set out there for hours trying
to figure out a trail. But still, it never worked too good.
His ideas of horticulture were horrible. For instance, one
of the first things he told me was he never, ever left a needle,
a twig, a leaf on the ground. They had to be always raked up
from around the plants. The plants did very well for about
fifteen, twenty years, and all of a sudden he said that he
noticed they weren't growing so very well. And at the same time
he was getting ground washing away and getting gullies and so
forth. This is when he started putting the banks covered with
cement with rocks in them to stop the erosion.
He never figured out that the reason the plants were doing
poor was that there was no fertilizer from the decomposed leaves
and twigs and so forth, and that it was the leaves and twigs
that were stopping the rain from hitting the ground and stopping
the erosion. He never figured that out.
Also, he knew there were two kinds of soil in the garden,
but he never figured out clay and loam, he didn't know that.
Riess: We have some stories about him from [A.E.] Wieslander, the soil
scientist, who got involved in a controversy about whether to
put a new botanic garden in Chabot Regional Park.
Roderick: That's right. Over at Chabot the soil was much better. But it
was very slippy, and whole hillsides were just slipping down.
That was the thing that was wrong with that. But Jim never
102
figured out--. He wrote about this. He brought down the
bristle cone pines, and he knew they grew in rocks and gravelly
soils, and yet he put them in clay. They grew for a little
while and then died.
Riess: I enjoyed my trip up to the Botanic Garden at Tilden so much the
other day. The Sierra meadow area is just wonderful.
Roderick: Did you notice that more or less in front of that is a pond?
That was one of the places he couldn't get anything to grow.
After I had been there for a year I found out why, right away.
It was this gooey clay. It was a little bit of a low spot, and
the water sat there all winter. Even the quaking aspen couldn't
take it. They died, and they moved up onto the hill.
Riess: "Moved up onto the hill?"
Roderick: Root suckers shot up on the slopes when the trees died. They
moved up onto the hills where there was drainage.
The low spot was mud puddles, so why not make it into a
pond? That's how come we dug it out.
Riess: When you came up there, did you replace him, or did you come up
to work for him?
Roderick: I replaced him.
Riess: Was there a transition period?
Roderick: There was supposed to be. But there was just no way that
anybody could get along with him. One of the things I found out
was that the men were cussed up one side and down the other side
for no reason at all. He would rather tell them that they were
every kind of a dirty word he could think about them, and "Go do
this," and he wouldn't tell them why he wanted it done that way.
Never would tell them any information, just so he could be the
boss, the top, the brains. He had so many weird, strange ideas,
people can't believe that he got plants to grow some of the
strange ways that he did.
Riess: What were the main problems that you had to deal with right
away?
Roderick: The worst of all, I would give orders when I wanted certain
things done. Then when I got out of there he'd come around and
tell the fellows to do the opposite.
Riess: But didn't he leave when you came?
103
Roderick: He lived there! He lived in a one -room shack. No running
water. He had an extension cord from the back office through
the wall to his shack to have electricity.
The other thing that I didn't realize was that he had keys.
He loved padlocks. Everything was locked. I unlocked
everything. In fact, my orders were to get the Visitor Center
open and exhibits up and lectures going. That was my first
priority. I left everything unlocked so the staff could see
what was going on.
I found out finally, too, that it was all open to Jim Roof,
and he was going into my personal papers and taking them to the
main office and making little remarks and trying to get me out
of there. In fact, he took my first draft that I made for my
letter for volunteers up to the main office and said that this
was what I sent out. They stupidly, even up there, believed
that. And you could see all of my corrections and making new
paragraphs and correcting the spelling and so forth. I had just
sat down one morning and typed out a letter, and then saw what I
liked and what I didn't like. Scratched down a few things.
Riess: And what did he do with it?
Roderick: Took it to the main office and said this is what I sent out all
over the countryside for trying to get volunteers.
Riess: By the main office you mean what?
Roderick: I mean the Regional Park office up at Skyline.
Riess: You did finally triumph. How?
Roderick: I'm still not quite certain. One of the things I think that
really helped was that he tried to tell everybody he was pushed
out. And, of course, he always told about me destroying the
place.
He got the newspapers and T.V. and radio and all of this to
listen to him. They'd come up with these different stories,
like that Mr. Roof had been pushed out and all this and that.
They would hear all this and they'd have to investigate, to look
into it.
These people would come up and look around and say, "Well,
we've never been here before, but, gee, this looks great!"
Invariably it went against him every time he opened his mouth.
104
We got a lot of nice people that started to come to the garden
that way.
Records and Numberin£ System
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
You said that you had a letter to volunteers,
volunteer program before?
Had there been a
Riess :
No. Some of these young people that he had met, he would get
them to come and work a few days. But then they'd get sick and
tired and move out.
You were trying to get the same kind of arrangement you had had
at UC of docents?
Yes. I had thought about that, but at that time I didn't dare
think too much, because there were so many things that I had to
try to get organized.
Jim had never got the place so it could even be called a
botanic garden. There were no records of any kind. Nothing had
ever been done that way. On top of that, he had this number
system- -different colors for different parts of the state, like
desert was one color, the Sierra was another color.
And that is still there?
Roderick: That's still going on. I think, eventually, they're going to
have to change that a little bit.
Anyhow, in his book that he had produced as a guide to the
garden it said that number such-and-such was one certain plant.
Well, it wasn't there. Then I found a record saying that same
number was something else. It wasn't there. It was a yucca
with the same number.
You don't do that. You've got to have something that you
can go back to, because dead records are just as important as
live, growing plants. It gives you information. Maybe it tells
you what kind of conditions you planted it under, or maybe you
might have collected it, say, from the northern part of its
range, while the southern part of the range would have been a
better collection area, and done better.
You never know for certain on these things . And those dead
records are important. Every once in awhile something dies, but
105
part of the root is still alive, and up comes a shoot from it,
and so you resurrect it again. It's a very interesting thing
when you get into this.
Trying to figure records--. Finally, I worked on the
.normal accessioning numbers of everybody else. When we traded
back and forth with other botanic gardens, then we worked out
that we put a "T" in front of ours, which means Tilden; and "UC"
is UCB; over at Strybing, it would be "S" or "ST"--this is how
they generally do it for Strybing. So our numbers will be all
the same, except we'll have these letters in front of it when we
trade back and forth.
We finally had to more or less use his old number system
for the existing plants, trying to compensate for all the
headaches of getting these other things going. Then trying to
map the garden and get the plants onto the map and the beds
numbered- -all of that I had to work out.
Riess: He had the colored labels, but he didn't have the same kind of
information?
Roderick: He had practically nothing. Also, when he left the garden he
took all the records that he had ever had and held them up for
ransom. The Regional Parks had to pay him money to get those
records. When I finally got my hands on them, I couldn't
believe it. It was just practically the same thing that was on
the labels. No information at all, except for three. On them
were plants that had died after I had taken over, "killed by the
hands of Roderick." [chuckles]
Riess: Oh, poor guy, sounds miserable.
Roderick: I can laugh about it now, but it was horrible, hell.
Mapping. Thinning (Ted Kipping) . and Digging
Riess: You had to map the place, you say?
Roderick: Yes. I got May Bios to take and lay out the general layout of
the place. They weren't too accurate, but at least from that we
could then go on and get accurate maps and then get the plants
all laid out on those maps so that we can keep up to date on
things and find things. Say an airplane crashes into the
building and kills everybody at work there, the next persons
that could come on would at least have something and could find
106
everything and know where to find things and try to keep the
records up. That was another thing.
I still say one of my most important things--. Jim would
plant, but never thin. The trees were planted about six feet
apart, and the surplus ones never removed. The seven, eight
years that I was there, 1 took close to three hundred trees out
in that little seven acres, most of it all for free. Ted
Kipping- -this is when he was really training a lot of persons on
tree work—he would send over a couple of good, trained men with
a whole crew of trainees . They removed practically every one of
those with no cost to us.
Riess : They would ball them up and take them off?
Roderick: No. This is just cutting them down.
Riess: I thought maybe they were taking them out for a garden.
Roderick: No. They were too big. But taking out trees where things are
crowded, which is like in a private garden, you've got to be
very careful so that you do not destroy other things around.
This is where he trained his men. He did this at UC and at
Strybing. At Strybing he did so much that he's given a room
once a month. Because he's a magnificent photographer, he shows
pictures there once a month. Half the time it's him, and half
the time it's other people's pictures. They gave him that
expensive room once a month forever.
Riess: I wondered about those Ted Kipping evenings. Is it a very
select group of people that attend?
Roderick: That is a potluck always. He invites everybody, and if you've
got a friend that you think would like to go, tell him to come
along!
Riess: He does it because he loves to show the slides?
Roderick: Yes, and he likes people to know more about plants. Well, not
necessarily all the time plants, but 90 percent of the time it's
on plants. It's just a nice little evening thing. I would
imagine that he did over $75,000 worth of tree work at Tilden.
Riess: You first met him at UC?
Roderick: I'd known him for many years. First I had known his brother,
Jofr.i, and through John I met Ted. This is when John was still
teaching at Strybing, and Ted came in as a worker in the garden
107
and then got into the tree work. So I've known him for a couple
of decades .
Riess: Was there a great hue and cry when you started taking the trees
out?
Roderick: Oh, my God! You've never heard such screaming in your life!
Riess: From whom, besides Roof? Who else cared about the garden?
Roderick: Other people. They couldn't see it. Finally in the redwood
forest, when you could see into the forest there, people then
started getting their eyes open. But it took an awful lot of
heartbreak and me getting screamed at.
Then, one time--. The ponderosa pines were so crowded.
They were just all misshapen. Ted's crew got out there, and
they had taken out the excess trees, and they were trying to
shape up the remaining ones. Jim came in and raised so much
hell that the foreman, Al Sinares, finally thought that Jim was
correct, and he just raised hell with the guys. They finally
got up and walked out and said they were never coming back
again.
Yes, one of the five or six remaining trees looked like
hell. But forty years of growth- -you' re going to have to fi'gure
that it's going to take a few years to come back, and it
wouldn't look like hell. Now it's a beautiful tree. It took
about ten years, but it's a beautiful tree now.
Riess: I can see how you had to be really strong in that situation.
People resist tree removal. Did you have to get permission for
all of that tree work from headquarters?
Roderick: I took it on myself. On my monthly report I would report that
"we had so many trees removed," and "it was starting to look
better already"- -things this way.
Riess: What did you do about the soil? What could you do?
Roderick: The main thing that I had said when the guys were bringing some
good soil in was to work some of it down into the clay so you
have a transition. Jim never knew this, and this is why he made
these mounds, and planted the things on them. The roots would
hit the clay and go out into the better soil. Then they had to
water to keep the plants alive. I tried to make the transition
in the soil.
108
The other thing, also, when I did the old original parking
lot, got it fenced in, I got piles of soil deep enough for
desert plants. It had been a parking lot, and it had a lot of
rock already moved into it, so it didn't have to have a
transition zone there. Things have been doing very good on
that. I did get, I think now, so all the persons will work some
of the new material into the old for a transition.
Staff and the Public^/
Roderick: [talking before the recorder is on about training helpers in the
Regional Parks Botanic Garden] --the foreman there, Al Seneres , I
would take him out and show him how to collect, and how to
record the field notes that I wanted for every plant that was
brought in. I took him out two or three times and showed him
this. Here, about two or three years after that, I brought in
some plants and gave them to him. He said, "Not good enough
field data. I want more information!" That was a great thing
to hear.
Riess: That's wonderful. As director at Tilden you weren't doing the
collecting anymore?
Roderick: [laughing] You can't keep me from doing this. But it was better
for the men to learn from the beginning, just let them go and
bring in everything, and try to show them that regardless of
what you bring in, say ten things from one spot, that some of
them are not going to grow, and some of them will grow, and one
of them will probably become a horrible pest.
The foreman still can't quite see all of this yet. He
still likes to go out and just grab everything he can, good
stuff as well as things of no value at all for a botanic garden,
things we already have. He still doesn't quite know this.
Riess: What kind of training does he have?
Roderick: Nothing in horticulture. Just a very little bit that he's taken
at night school and what he's picked up.
Riess: I would think that the educational level of the people that
you've been working with over the years would be rising.
Roderick: This fellow has learned unbelievably. But he has so much to un
learn from Jim.
109
Riess: Oh, it's the same person?
Roderick: Yes.
There is one fellow that's very good. He's had
horticultural training. I think that eventually he's going to
be very, very good. I give him a bad time all the time and tell
him he's no good [laughs], but I can see the things that he's
done, and he's gotten some good results.
Riess: How did you change or improve on the policy of interpretation
and the way the garden related to the public?
Roderick: I encourage all people to come unless, once in awhile, we have
somebody that is bound to cause problems.
Jim always considered it his private garden. If he didn't
like you, "Get the hell out," and then stronger than that. They
told me that if somebody was being chased by the police that he
knew, and they got in the gardens, he locked the gates so the
police couldn't come in. A lot of these kind of strange things
went on.
The Bad with the Good
Riess: All in all, you were there that six or seven years and got done
what you wanted to get done up there?
Roderick: I saw to it that a lot of the chaotic hell was gone. I was just
getting to the good, pleasurable things, and I decided I could
retire. Then Steve Edwards took over, and now he's getting a
lot of the nice, glorious things going.
Steve's got time that he can see about getting lots of
different kinds of interesting lectures going. I just kept more
or less the same thing going every year, just to have lectures,
trying to get all these different little things figured out and
done, and get some ideas and directions going and things this
way. Now Steve has gotten three -and- a -half or four acres more
added to the garden. He's getting all those paths in now, and
water into the area so it can really start expanding.
Jim also had one other bad thing: he thought small. Never
would think big. Never figured for expanding or anything like
110
that. Where the present office sets, you can still look down
out the window and see this great big chunk of cement.
Jim was going to build a lecture room and so forth, which
was great, in the shape of the state of California, with a
raised map of California built in it. By the time that he got
all this done, there wouldn't be enough room for twenty people
in the room. He built out in the middle of the garden what we
call the "lodge." Again, it was going to be a lecture room.
But he was a very small person, and the door to get into the
main entrance, you had to duck to get in it. It was about five-
and-a-half feet high.
Then he built--! don't know what it was, just big masses of
water-worn rock outcrops. It looked very unnatural. In the
middle of it he started to make a pond with a waterfall in it so
that no person could come in the door. They could walk one way
or the other around this , but it was only wide enough for one
person. Well, of course, that was absolutely against all public
building codes, like a fire hazard. There were just a lot of
these funny kinds of things.
He never figured how to really work cement. That was
another thing that had to be worked over and fixed up, a lot of
that cement work he did. In fact, at the interview I had when I
was accepted to take over the job, I said I would not take any
cement out for a long time. I kept my promise. [laughing] It
was about two o'clock the afternoon of the first day before I
had a sledge hammer working on some cement. It was, again, bad
cement work. You couldn't get the truck down for emergency work
without knocking off the corner of this. We couldn't get the
truck around.
Riess: He does sound like a character. It's almost unfair to go on
about him anymore .
Roderick: He had a lot of good things. He did get a lot of the rarer
plants. He brought in so many rare plants and got them
established. He did a lot of good things. He wrote beautiful.
He wrote beautiful. He had a degree in literature.
Meeting Fellow Botanic Gardeners
Riess: People who were associated with the other big botanic gardens in
California: Maunsell Van Rensselaer at Santa Barbara; the man at
Rancho Santa Ana; Denys Rowe who worked at La Purisima in
Ill
Lompoc. Were there organizations of botanic garden directors,
and were you a part of that?
Roderick: When I started at UC Botanical Garden I tried to C'-fordinate the
different native plant botanic gardens. I got Percy Everett and
Bob Thorne from Rancho Santa Ana, and Dara Emery at Santa
Barbara, and of course Art Menzies, whom I had known for a long
time at Strybing, and Roman Gankin and those from over at Davis,
and of course included Jim Roof.
We had our first meeting up here. We took everybody
around. Some of them didn't come. I think it was Santa Barbara
that never did make it. Percy was pretty mad at Jim at that
time because of him screaming so badly. But we did have a great
time.
We had a second time. It was up in the Lake County area,
and that came to a grinding halt all at once because of [John
F. ] Kennedy being assassinated. We saw flags at half mast, and
we stopped to find out. That ended that one. Percy Everett
said later, "Don't ask us anymore to come up here." And he
said, "I'm not going to ask the group to come down there because
I have to ask Jim Roof. I won't have it." That's how that
stopped.
Riess: But you had hoped to create a kind of network?
Roderick: --a kind of network, and to coordinate our work and make sure
that we got all these rare plants, and things of beauty, too. I
like to have some showy things, as well as botanical stuff.
Riess: How does CNPS work specifically with the botanic gardens? Do
they create the network so that this group that you wished that
you could have put in place in fact isn't necessary? Does CNPS
make sure that the botanic gardens have specimens of everything?
Roderick: Generally speaking, we don't say anything to CNPS when we get an
idea to go out and see about some of these rare plants to bring
and start in. But when we show that we're growing, CNPS is
always very happy. I think that without even saying anything,
all of us agree that the more rare and endangered plants we can
grow, the better it is for everybody; if something should happen
to the things in the wild, we know we can get starts again from
the botanic gardens.
This is now becoming a national thing, and all botanic
gardens are trying to work together to get starts of everything
that's really rare and endangered, just in case something
becomes extinct. The only place here in the Bay Area that's
112
Riess:
Roderick:
done anything about this is Tilden. They've planted out two
things that were extinct on Mt. San Bruno: one manzanita, and
the false lily-of - the-valley . Both of those have been planted
back on the mountain. I think that Steve said he's got two or
three things more that are just about propagated enough now to
get replanted.
Would they be planted in secret places? Is that the idea?
That I'm not quite certain on. I know that some of the
manzanita was planted on the original place, and then a couple
on another spot. What they did with the Maianthemum, I'm not
sure, but it's somewhere planted right in the same way.
Regions and Zones
Riess: The nine regions of California that Jim Roof designed the Tilden
garden around, was this system of zones in place before Jim
Roof? I mean did Jepson, for instance, look at California in
that way?
Roderick: Yes. They all kind of look at- -like in the Sierra you have
different elevations. Of course, the top one is Hudsonian, and
so on. Jim never thought that way. He just thought of it as
more of a semi -degree of geographical system. Even then, it was
still not quite perfect the way he had it laid out. He followed
counties, and some counties--. For instance, Kern County not
only was Sierran, but it was also desert. So that was another
thing that we worked on that I thought out and thought out.
We got the staff together, and we worked on that. Finally
we worked it out so we tried to cut — like Kern County, we cut it
in half, or something that way. It's very tricky, and it's very
difficult to do that. UC now has more or less as the botanists
have broken the state up, like the Hudsonian and those kinds of
things. It makes it a little bit more easy way of planting
things .
The other thing that Jim did very poorly there was he gave
the foothill conditions very small space, and that's one of our
most important things and biggest areas. One of the reasons
why we want to enlarge the garden is to give a larger area for
those kinds of plants. The Sierran area he did give plenty of
room. But the foothill is, oh, I guess, about a hundred by a
hundred foot. We really needed at least a full acre for that.
Eventually that's going to be moved. It's going to be a short
113
time, twenty or thirty years from now and we'll have it all
done. [laughs] That's one thing about botanic gardens: you
work over centuries, not today and tomorrow.
Riess: That's right. Well, maybe he knew something about the foothills
that you don't know. Maybe he expected they would disappear,
[chuckles]
How about Strybing's California section? How is it set up?
Roderick: It's been worked over again. Art Menzies set that up
originally. Originally they had spots already made, but then
Art went and kind of tied them together.
Riess: Which model is it based on? On the elevation zone model or on
the--?
Roderick: I don't think it's too much made out that way. They have the
redwood section, and that's about the only one that is really
kept to a geographical or botanical way, because it was so badly
mixed up originally. They have quite a bit on riparian, because
they had a drainage area through there, and they had the rock.
It's just kind of general, and not very much of any kind of a
real good layout.
Riess: They don't have the same botanic garden ambitions?
Roderick: No. In Strybing they are more interested in ornamental then
they are in botanical. If you go through there, you'll see that
there is a lot more of horticultural. They've got these
demonstration gardens to give persons ideas of what they can do
in their own gardens. More that way.
Marge Hayakawa and Wayne Roderick, Sonoma Coast State Park, 1986.
Photograph by Vaclav Pies til
114
VI THE BIG HORTICULTURAL PICTURE: INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIONS
[Interview 4: June 6, 1990 ]#//
Wlldf lowers . Floras . Keys . Terminology
Riess: We're looking at your library of garden books, and your stacks
of magazines and so on. Do you save everything?
Roderick: Oh, I've also got piles and piles and piles of letters from
different people from all over the country and the world. I
can't throw them away, and yet they're old and no good at all,
and I've got to go in one day and just start tossing out.
Riess: Do you think they belong in some kind of archives?
Roderick: I don't know. I did take about six, eight, ten boxes five or
six years ago and gave them to Strybing Arboretum. They had the
grandest time going through and saving what they wanted and
tossing the rest.
Riess: Well, isn't that a relief? You can continue to do that.
I want to get a question off my chest right now. I have
here A Field Guide to Pacific States Wildflowers [Theodore F.
Niehaus, illustrations by Charles L. Ripper, Houghton Mifflin
Co., 1976]. What's the difference between "wildf lowers" and
"native plants?"
Roderick: They are all the same. This is Ted Niehaus 's book? Yes.
That's a very good book. I use it a lot. In fact I have two
copies of it, one that he gave me pre -publishing date. That
one --it's all written in there --never gets out of my house, but
the cheap one goes everywhere with me. If nothing else, like
with the sunflower family, where you've got such a tremendous
number of them, and you're not quite certain what group of the
sunflower family it belongs to, just looking at the line
drawings, instantly you can get into the right area. Then it's
115
so easy to go to Munz or Jepson and figure it out quickly down
at least to the genus .
Riess: And Jepson is a complete flora for California?
Roderick: It's a flora for California, and it isn't quite complete. No
flora can ever be complete because you keep finding more things.
Now, the Jepson Manual is being revised, and it will be out
supposedly in fall of '91 or early '92, probably '92. Even with
the new flora, it's still not going to be the easiest thing in
the world to use. There are a few things that are going to be
rather difficult for people. But the technical terms are being
broken down into easy English for the amateur, and they're
trying to eliminate, as much as they can, "more or less." Munz
used that a tremendous amount, so many species, that there's
just no way that you could get down to a species without knowing
the plant itself. FA California Flora, by Philip A. Munz, in
collaboration with David D. Keck]
Riess: What do you mean by "more or less?"
Roderick: The term they use is "more or less" --plus or minus. So you get
a species that the flowers are lavender to purple on this one,
"more or less." The next species, the flowers are purple to
lavender, "more or less." [laughter]
You're into difficulties. I mean, especially like beyond
the desert, where things are not too familiar, you'll find--
well, Gilias, there are about twenty or thirty species of them,
and it's "more or less" on them. Up here are lupines, and
lupines are again "more or less," and to really identify a
lupine you almost need a chromosome count. There's so many of
these plants that you have to have so many different things to
try to identify them.. This is what Jim Hickman is doing in
doing the editing. He's trying to get so that you can take and
do this.
Riess: He's the new editor of the Jepson?
Roderick: Yes. Nicest guy you'll ever want to see in your life.
Riess: Are they in fact doing chromosome counts?
Roderick: I think from the pieces of the manuscript that I had, I haven't
seen or really noticed any chromosome count numbers. They will
probably be put in, but as far as for identifying the plants,
each genus has a key to all the species in that genus. They are
trying their best to get simple things. I had the fritillarias
116
to go over, and I'm still screaming bloody murder. A big
percentage of those you've got to dig up the plant and look at
not only the bulb, but at the roots. That's just too
destructive. I don't like that.
Riess: Back to the general question of books and keying things, is
Helen Sharsmith's, for instance, a totally separate system?
Roderick: No. With Sharsmith and all those smaller floras, generally
speaking, the keys are quite simple, and they have kept them to
their areas that they wrote on. For instance, like with Mary
Bowerman on Mount Diablo, you can use her book for other areas
around that, but it is written strictly for Mount Diablo. Her
keys are more simple, so you are in deep trouble if you try to
use it, say, over in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, because
there are different species over there. It doesn't go into
detail enough to break it down for the whole state. There's a
lot of these floras that way that are just elegant, but they are
strictly for their one little group area.
Riess: I guess that's kind of a godsend.
Roderick: It's heavenly when you go into a given area and you've got a
book for that area. You don't have to go through dozens of
species, like in Munz or Jepson, till you get to what you're
interested in finding.
Riess: On my earlier question, why did they end up being called
California natives rather than called California wildflowers?
Roderick: I never stopped to think about that. I don't know. Do you want
me to call Jepson Herbarium? I'd get an answer right away from
them!
Riess: I won't let you get away from me right now. I don't want you on
the phone. They'll have twenty questions for you if you have
one for them! [laughs]
Do other states call their native flora "natives," or in
fact do other states even look at their flora in such a way?
Roderick: I think one of the reasons maybe that we call this "native" is
because we are the only place in North America with a
Mediterranean climate. We've got summer drought. This brings
our endemics up to such a high number that they're found no
other place in the world. In a good percentage of the other
states, their florals go from one state to another and are
widespread that way, while here so many are restricted.
117
Riess: I wonder if it was some of those early English collectors, in
fact, who maybe first designated these as the native plants of
California.
Roderick: I really can't tell you. I've never gone into that. You're
going to cause me trouble. I'm going to get my nose into
everything now trying to find out something about it! [laughs]
Riess: Good! I like that attitude. That's great.
You showed me a picture of you reading what looked like a
new copy of Hardy Californians [by Lester Rowntree, Macmillan,
1936] . Does Lester Rowntree do a key in that?
Roderick: No, she doesn't. She wrote about them, and she was very good at
that- -her beautiful descriptions.
Styles of Writing and Speaking about Horticulture
Riess: That reminds me of a question I may have brought up earlier, but
I'll bring it up again, and that is about horticultural writing
styles, how to write about flowers, and use restraint with the
adjectives. There are varying schools of thought about that, I
gather. Some people want the writing pretty cut and dried.
Roderick: With me writing is very difficult. If I get information down,
that's good. If I get flowery as well, it's unbelievable. I
have a hard time using a lot of adjectives.
Riess: And that's what Lester Rowntree was good with?
Roderick: She wrote beautifully. Beautiful prose, as well as good
adjectives. I wouldn't say flowery, but very nice, easy
reading, and with good enough adjectives that helped you really
see the plant.
Riess: Is it a way to tell the professionals from the amateurs?
Roderick: No. Generally speaking- -now I'm thinking in botanical terms
again- -most of the professionals that I know, the ones with
master's degrees seem to write much more beautifully than the
ones with Ph.D.s. But again, I think they're thinking in very
fine details rather than a good overview of the whole thing.
But there's also a lot of variation in that.
118
Riess :
For instance, with Bob Ornduff--. I'm absolutely wild over
that guy. He not only knows his botany, but he also knows how
to take care of the plants --his horticulture is very good. When
he was director at UC Botanical Garden, the only difference
between his thoughts and my thoughts were that I had to think
small of what I could do, and he had always thought big of what
would look nice. We had a big joke out of it. In fact, the
other day we mentioned something like this, and we were laughing
again about it. I had to think of what I could do, rather than
what would be nice to have. He writes quite well, too.
I think the greatest of all these writers was John Thomas
Howell, his lectures as well as his writing. Whenever he would
use a technical term he would explain it. "That means--."
How does he fit in?
Roderick:
Riess :
He was head of the California Academy of Sciences Botany
Department. He came in under Alice Eastwood in the early
thirties, and he outlived her. He's still alive. Very, very
ill, very unhealthy, hardly gets out of his rest home now at
all. Elizabeth McClintock took over from him. But what a
gentleman! He was the botanist on the Crocker Expedition to the
Galapagos in the early thirties. So he has a great deal of
information and things he can tell you about.
Maybe slides have become a kind of crutch for people,
thousand words . "
"Worth a
Roderick:
Riess :
That could be.
at writing.
It definitely would be me, because I'm so poor
I had to write an article years back for the California
Horticultural Society- -some of us at the UC Botanical Garden
were asked to write articles for one issue they were going to
have on the Botanical Garden. The editor, who was a very nice,
I guess, editor --some thing came up after the journal had been
published, and I said, "Piro Caro, I certainly feel sorry for
you having to have my stuff to work with compared to Dr.
[Helen-Mar] Beard."
He said, "Her writing is so perfect, it's dull! Yours is
so horrible, it's magnificent!" I've never forgotten that. I
used to be told how horrible a writer I was, and that I didn't
have the education, and "You can't do this, you can't do that!"
Yo* were probably pretty traumatized by being told that too many
times .
119
Roderick: Yes. Then, to have Piro Caro telling me it was delightful.
Riess: Who was he?
Roderick: Piro Caro. Owen Pearce was the head of the Horticultural
Society's Journal . but Piro did the actual work, I think. I
think he cleaned it up and gave it to Owen. I think that was
the way it worked. I'm not sure about that. Gosh, that's going
back a couple of years!
Know -How
Riess: In your experience, is there a traditional, not enmity but a
sort of turf war between the botanists who would head these
arboreta and the horticulturists?
Roderick: Well, Dr. Herbert Baker was a very poor director for the one
reason that he didn't know anything about horticulture, and you
couldn't get anything over to him. [Watson] Laetsch--you know
my thoughts on him. Then Ornduff- -that' s why I like him so
much- -all of a sudden, here's somebody that can see all these
different things .
Riess: I wondered if you heard about it from other people in your
profession who felt that they were always having to educate the
botanists .
Roderick: I'm thinking of so many different ones. Roy Taylor, he's way up
in Chicago with a botanic garden. He was awful nice. He seemed
to have a good idea, a rounded idea, on horticulture, as well as
the botany. I'm trying to think of a couple of the other
persons that I have met.
Riess: How about the people at the Santa Barbara Botanic Garden or
Rancho Santa Ana?
Roderick: Those all seem to be very good. One time many, many years back,
Percy Everett, who was the head of the horticulture, said that
here he thought he knew it all, but that the Mexican help would
not like the spot he had pointed out to plant—he said they
always planted in dozens or hundreds, they like to plant in
masses down there --and they'd sneak out two or three and plant
them where they thought they could do better. He said that
invariably they did better.
120
He said that he got to the point with his Mexicans,
especially the foremen, where he'd say to them, "This is where
we'd like to have them. What do you think about the soil?" He
said he learned a whole lot from those Mexican people.
It was more or less the same way with Myron Kimnach at the
Huntington. I never really talked to him about this, but he
said that when he figured out where something should go he'd
then tell the Mexican help there that he'd like to see these
here and, "What do you think?" They'd go over that a little
bit. He had third generation help there at Huntington Gardens.
He was quite proud of this.
When Myron Kimnach took the job of director down at the
Huntington, his mother was getting quite elderly. Myron and I
had hit it off good, and I got to meet his mother. I had dinner
there several times before he got the job down there. When she
got so ill and had to go to the hospital and fell and broke her
hip and was never able to take care of it, I watched out for her
for ten years in rest homes and everything till she died. I'm
very pleased that I was able to help Myron out some.
England: E.B. Anderson. Chris Brickell Alice Moore
Riess: Before we had the tape recorder on you told a story which in
maybe an abbreviated form you should tell again, because it
opens the door to your foreign connections. You were talking
about Marge [Margedant] Hayakawa and some seeds from
Czechoslovakia. So my question is, when did you become
international, and how did that happen?
Roderick: I think it started instantly after I went on my first foreign
trip.
Riess: When was that?
Roderick: That would have been in 1963. Margaret Williams had gone to the
International Rock Garden Society Conference in England in '61.
She met E.B. Anderson, and she invited a lot of these people
over, and he took her up on it. He came over in '62. I had
collected a lot of our native bulbs for him. That meant I had
to help take him around and show him California, and of course
he wanted to see mostly our native bulbs.
Riess: You were up at UC then?
121
Roderick: Yes.
Riess: He had contacted you ahead of time saying, "Please collect--"?
Roderick: No, I told Margaret what I would do for her I would do. for him.
He thought I was going to just have one thing for him, but I had
quite a few.
After he left California he was a guest of the Agricultural
Department of the United States, and they took care of his bulbs
and everything for him while he was there with them in
Washington, D.C.
Riess: E.B. Anderson—what was his position?
Roderick: He was a great, great plantsraan of the world. He had a Victoria
Medal of Honor, which is the highest honor that the Royal
Horticultural Society can give out. It has to be only to an
Englishman, and there are only sixty-three of these persons,
which is the number of years that Victoria reigned. It's the
highest honor in England you can get.
Riess: Now, a plantsman— is that the same as a horticulturist?
Roderick: Yes. But he specialized mostly in bulbs. This one friend- -he
died quite a few years back—he said he never was to E.B.
Anderson's garden, except in the wintertime. Mr. Anderson
always gave him hell about this, and he said, "Where in the
world can you go and see so many labels per square inch of rare
and unusual things!" [laughter]
Riess: You had been collecting, and when he came you had dry bulbs for
him?
Roderick: No. I had them mostly in pots in loose soil so they could
easily be dumped out. I had about, oh, thirty, forty different
collections.
Of course he was interested in bulbs. What Margaret did
was to bring him up to UC Botanical Garden. This is when I had
so many big batches of bulbs already going. He said that my
boxes were drier than his desert plot. I said, "It is fine,
more or less, and the boxes are still moist." After he went
home— he lived in the Cotswolds, and of course they had Cotswold
stone walls all over- -he tore off the top of one wall, cut the
stones in half, and laid them back up there so there was only
about a three -inch space in the center. He filled that with
loose soil, and he planted a lot of these up there, and they
were growing very well from then on.
122
Riess: How beautiful. Did you ever get to see that?
Roderick: Oh, yes. I was his house guest about three different times.
Riess: After that visit over here in 1963, you say--.
Roderick: I went over there in '63. He was here in '62.
Riess: I see. And that was the beginning? What happened? Do you
still trade? Do you go in your own interest?
Roderick: All of my foreign trips have been made on my own time, my own
money. That first time I went over I wrote to the Royal Hort
saying that I had all these different kinds of woody plant
seeds, as well as other plants, and were they interested?
They had never heard of this person [me] before. They
called from the main office out to Wisley. The fellow out there
said, "Gosh, arriving here on a Saturday! What are we going to
do? We'll get that new employee, whatever his name is, the
botanist, Chris Brickell. Tell Mr. Brickell to meet this
fellow." Well, now he is the general manager of the whole
organization, the highest paid person of the Royal Horticultural
Society. We went out. He took us around a little bit to show
us some of the garden.
Riess: Who were you travelling with?
Roderick: We had here at UC Berkeley Alice Moore, one of the world's
authorities on cement. One of our scientists in the Hearst
Mining Building had made a new cement, but couldn't control it.
It was expanding and not contracting and was not stable. She
was brought over to control this. Well, she loved lilies. She
arrived in Berkeley on a Friday night. Saturday she found an
apartment. Sunday she furnished the apartment. And on Monday
morning she went up the Botanical Garden to see lilies, and this
is how we met.
We're still very dear friends. She's retired now. But she
also loved acacias, because they couldn't grow them, and before
she retired she bought a nice chunk of land on the Isle of Wight
where the acacias have already gone wild. She had to clear the
garden of a lot of them.
Anyhow, she picked me up at the airport and took me to
Wisley, and we went out and looked around the garden. Goodness,
here was the most beautiful Pulsatilla in full bloom. I got
down with my camera to take pictures. I took two or three
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
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pictures. I guess there must have been a startled look on
Chris's face. I started to stand up and I heard Alice say,
"Well, you know, this is something I guess they can't grow in
California." I said, "No. We can get one flower it a time on a
plant, and here you have about twenty flowers on this one." He
said, "Well, it is a poor, wishy-wash color, and we haven't
pulled it out yet."
This told me that yes, I'm in a completely different kind
of a climate, part of the world, everything. So from then on we
got to talking on plants, and I would tell him what I thought,
what we did here, and then he would tell me what they did there.
This is how we got acquainted. Doors started to open up a
little bit. Nowadays I have to go to England without letting
anybody know if I want to have some time to myself.
Is there so much they can learn from you? Is that it?
Well, I have sent so much seed over of all these different
things. Like yesterday, I got a package of cuttings sent off to
the Royal Hort of things I knew that they wanted. I'll get a
letter in a couple of weeks saying, "Gee, what a surprise! I
got cuttings from you today."
When the English took California plants back to England did they
call them "California natives?" When you go to Wisley can you
see a whole stand of something identified as California natives?
Roderick: They try to grow them in a spot where they think that they can
give them certain kind of conditions. For instance, at Wisley
they have a special hothouse for alpines, for dry growing. Same
at Kew. At Kew they have big hothouses just for the dry things.
This last spring when I was there, the fellow that was over that
had one section for Calachortus and another section for
Erythroniums and another section for something else. But there
is wet growing as well as dry growing of these, so most of these
things have to be, in fact, two places so they get the attention
and that particular kind of a growing condition that they
require .
It's such a pleasure to go to those big outfits and see the
care that they're giving the seed I sent over.
Collecting and Sharing Bulbs##
Riess: When you're over there, do you consult with Thompson and Morgan
or any of the British seed companies?
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Roderick: No, I don't. I have nothing to do with them because I won't
collect that amount. You know, if I collect a teaspoonful of
seed I consider that a quite a batch. Yes, in the past I have
collected, say, bulky seed- -a cupful. That sounds like a
tremendous amount, but when you break it down to match up a
small seed, it isn't. I try my best never to take more than one
percent of the seed in a given patch.
Riess: They have their own seed fields?
Roderick: They probably have their own seed fields, or more likely they
have small amounts, and they are getting that from persons that
have grown the seed themselves. This is quite often--. I know
my friends now that come over here, we've collected, or I've
sent seed to them or bulbs. To these special, special persons I
like collecting two or three bulbs of something and sending it
to them. And then I know they're going to get the special care
that they need, and then they will hand pollinate to make sure
they get good seed. It takes only a tiny pinch of seed to give
somebody else a start.
I like three bulbs when I'm collecting bulbs, for the one
reason that that way you've got a chance that one might not
grow, you've got the other two. As I've said, if you can't get
one bulb out of three to grow, you might as well stop. The
other thing is, if you do get three, then you can get better
cross-pollination, more vigorous plants from seed.
Riess: It's rare that I let anything go to seed because I keep removing
the old flower heads. Why don't people plant bulbs by seed?
Roderick: Because they take time. You've got to figure for most bulbs
four years for the first flower, and generally five and six.
With trilliums it takes two years to get the seed to germinate,
and then it takes anywhere from five to fifteen years to get
them to bloom. Most people don't like to wait that long. This
is one of the reasons I try and send the two or three bulbs to
different ones, especially like Kath Dryden and a few of those.
Riess: Where is she?
Roderick: She lives just outside of London, north of London. She's a
character of the first quality. She's a long bean pole. She
says that she was born in the poorest part of London- -they
didn't even have a toilet, they lived on the third floor, no
running water, no electricity. But she has a Victoria Medal of
Honor, she's such a great expert on bulbous plants. She tries
to grow everything she possibly can in the bulbs of the world,
125
especially Fritillarias .
person.
She also is the number one Lewis ia
Over there they have this organization trying to keep a
collection of all these different plants. Different persons
take and try to grow them. Plus, Kath also tries to keep the
collections: anybody that wants to do any research, she can give
them a collection or at least plants to just look at if she only
has one of such things. If she can find a young person that's
going to try to grow these, she'll somehow get divisions or
starts off of them to give them to him.
Riess: Don't people do that here, too?
Roderick: To a degree. I'm considered the wild one in that respect. My
plants never get too big because I keep giving away too much.
Riess: But that kind of generosity is not a tradition here?
Roderick: No. The way I look at it- -finding these young people and
forcing things onto them- -is they're the horticulturists of the
future. Get them hooked as fast as you possibly can.
Riess: George Waters says he used to send any visitors from England to
see you. He refers to somebody named Halliwell from Kew.
Roderick: Oh, yes, Brian Halliwell. Brian just retired last year. He is
a difficult person to talk to. I guess he is really more of a
shy person, and a very precise person. If you said anything
that was kind of humorous that could go two ways, he'd take the
wrong way invariably.
A young fellow, Tony Hall, who has taken over from him most
of his work, couldn't have his job because he has no hearing
whatsoever. Tony Hall is a fine plantsman but could not give
the lectures or anything like this because he has no hearing.
So they've hired somebody new, and I've met the fellow, but I
can't even tell you his name now. We were more or less passing.
I get the run of the back area there. But those real
plantsmen, you can't hardly tie them down for a minute to talk
with them. They're too interested in their work.
Riess: When you're talking about the "back area," are you talking about
Wisley again?
Roderick: More of this was at Kew. They have lots of hothouses that are
off-limits to the public. At Wisley they have only a small
range of hothouses that are off to the public.
126
Riess: Why would people have contacted George Waters?
Roderick: Well, that was through Pacific Horticulture.
Riess: They would write to him as the editor of the magazine?
Roderick: Yes.
Garden Climate and Colors
Riess: Have you spent time at Sissinghurst?
Roderick: I've been there quite a few times. For some reason or other,
I've never been able to get acquainted with the woman that's
over it, but everybody else says that this is nothing unusual.
But I've been there from fairly early spring to early fall. I
have not been there in fall coloring at Sissinghurst.
The middle, the biggest part of the garden, has never been
developed. It just kind of looks like a big lawn with a few old
fruit trees. This is what the average public sees. But early
spring, say, first week of April, there are just great drifts of
daffodils with Fritillaria meleagris. Just drifts of them. The
most gorgeous sight you ever saw in your life.
In October — I've only been there in early October, not mid-
October, which I think would be better- -the big patches of
Colchicums come in that lawn area. Here are these big pink and
lavender blobs of colors throughout, and you can see why they
would never let anything else be planted in the area. It's
absolutely breathtaking. Vita Sackville-West and Nigel
Nicholson- -you can see why they kept that so plain, and you can
see how they really loved plants and how they knew what they
were doing.
Riess: They have those beautiful stone walls setting it all off.
Roderick: And they blended their colors so beautifully and kept their
different little gardens to certain colors so they wouldn't
clash with other areas. It's a miracle how they worked out
things .
Riess: I think about color in California as orangy-yellow and blue,
blue sky and poppies and lupine.
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Roderick: Another thing, too, are your climates. It seems in the hotter,
drier climates you also have a lot of hot colors. In your more
mild climates you do have more delicate colors. England would
correspond, say, to the area from Eureka on north where you have
the damp, cool climates.
Most cool growing plant flowers fade in hot sun. There's a
lady in San Francisco that lives right out practically on the
beach. They have dahlias. With dahlias you can take one
variety, a main variety, and you can plant one of those at Elsie
Mueller's house and then plant one here at my house. You pick
flowers at their prime and bring them together, and you'd swear
they were two different varieties. Just that intense fog all
summer long makes all the difference, where we only get a little
fog once in awhile.
The same way with fuchsias, and a lot of the annuals are
this way. There will be much more intense color here in
California on the immediate coast where there's heavy fog than
just a few miles inland. But the zinnias are better inland.
Riess: So the sun just —
Roderick: --bleaches out all of the color on most common ground plants.
The other thing is how the acid soil works on, among other
things, hydrangeas. Here we can only have pink. Up in Eureka
they do everything they can to get pink ones --they can only have
blue, the soil is so acid. And again, the climate is so mild.
Turkey
Riess: You've gone further afield than England. You were recently in
Holland, and in Turkey. Is it always bulbs?
Roderick: I like bulbs. The one thing I wanted to see — and I was in
Turkey at the right time — I've always wanted to see hyacinths in
the wild. We finally got high enough on one mountain to find
Galan thus— your snow drops- -still in bloom. Just four flowers
we saw, but that was enough to satisfy me.
I think I got four hyacinths. They were everywhere, but
never in mass. They were scattered. Some places they'd be up
to a foot apart. Other places there would be one here, and
you'd go fifty feet before you'd find another one. They were
128
almost every place that we went, but more on the Anatolia
Plateau and into the mountainous areas to the western part of
Turkey. I can see where they got color variations in
cultivation right away because there's quite a variation in
color in the wild.
Riess: Are there Turkish horticulturists who are avid, or is this an
underdeveloped interest?
Roderick: There are a few, but I've never met up with any of these. The
only thing I can tell you is that with Crocus the Turks dig them
like mad, not for beauty but to eat as food.
The first time I went to Turkey, which was with the Alpine
Garden Society, we had Brian Matthews, an expert on Turkish
bulbs who wrote the book on Turkish bulbs, with us. He found a
Crocus- -he wrote the book Genus Crocus . so he knew what he was
talking about --he found a Crocus that did not belong in that
area whatsoever. It was completely different from the regular
Crocus. He could tell by the coating on the bulb. Instead of
being like paper, it was like a fishnet.
He called everybody together to show them what he found.
He was so excited. It had a seed pod on it, and you could see
the seed on it. He was so excited about finding it. It was
about two to three hundred miles out of place. He held it up to
show this netting- like covering over the bulb, and there were a
bunch of Turkish around there, and this one fellow reached over
and grabbed the bulb and put it in his mouth and bit it in half.
At the same time, of course, Brian was reaching over trying to
save his bulb. At least he got the seed pod and the seed, and
he now has about five or six seedlings up. In another three or
four years he'll be able to find out if he was right or not.
Riess: What a ferocious story!
Roderick: You get into a lot of those crazy things when you go to foreign
countries .
Riess: I always think of Crocus
they bigger?
Roderick: No.
as little, low plants. In Turkey are
This last trip, another reason we went when we did was to
see Crocus in the wild. I have seen pictures of fields up in
the mountains of Europe solid with the color of Crocus. We
never saw that. They were scattered. There would be a little
clump here, there would be a flower here, a flower there,
129
another little clump. When I mean little --not over ten flowers.
Riess: And all down around a three and four- inch height?
Roderick: Yes. Some of them were maybe up to three inches. The littlest
one that we saw was the cutest little thing. A nickel would
completely cover the flower. Little, pale yellow. It was about
an inch -and- a- quarter, maybe an inch-and-a-half tall. It was a
cute little thing. I wouldn't touch any of those. They were
all up in the snow country. Now, in Greece--.
Riess: Why wouldn't you touch them?
Roderick: You couldn't give them the snow covering.
In Greece I found them clear right down to almost the sea.
I did bring back a few of those, and I've had three or four
collections bloom. I've got seed, of course, and I'm waiting
for the seed. It will take another two or three years.
Comine Through Customs
Riess: Are the restrictions on mailing seed and plant material a
problem for you?
Roderick: I let my import permit run out, and I haven't taken time to
renew it. I generally bring my stuff home with me, but I didn't
do that for Greece or for Turkey. I was in Greece too long, and
some of these plants were still pretty green. I needed to get
them to be potted up as quickly as possible, so I shipped them
by mail.
I take my U.S. Customs label with me and put that on them.
I wash everything carefully and make sure there's no soil, and
check for any kind of pests. So far, everything has come
through. Last year, coming back from Greece, I brought the seed
with me because there's no problem getting seed in.
Riess: You don't have to declare it?
Roderick: I declared that I had plant material and seed.
Riess: They have a huge list of things that--?
Roderick: Well, I knew what to keep away from. I have that list of what
you're not supposed to bring in. I declared this, and they
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Riess:
Roderick:
called the plant inspector, and in the first package of seed
they opened, here was a beetle. I said, "Oh, my God!" Here I
went through everything and thought I had everything so clean.
The fellow said, "Well, we're going to have to keep it." I
said, "No problem."
It seemed that I came back about the time that they were
having vacation, too, and they were short in the agricultural
department over at the international airport. So I gave two
weeks, and then I called the fellow, and I said, "Well, I'll
come over."
I came the next day. He still was so swamped that he
wasn't able to get to them. So I sat there and helped him. I
undid my packages, handed them over to him. He inspected, and I
folded them back up and had the next one ready. This is the way
it went.
I got to like the fellow very much, and I see how he works,
and he sees how I work, so I'm not afraid if I have anything,
especially seed. I'm just so happy if he'll take care of it.
We've got enough pests here without getting anymore.
Do you know insects very well?
No. Of course, anything that's diseased I won't even touch over
there. There's so much nice, interesting stuff that generally
speaking, if you find one thing and you can see it's diseased,
if you look around, you're going to find others that are not.
I just hope that there are a couple of the seeds that I
brought back that I will get germination on. It would be nice
botanically, but some of them would be nice for home culture,
too.
Seed Exchanging
Riess: Once you have seeds from them here, what do you do? Do you take
them to the rock garden group, or do you just take them to
special friends?
Roderick: No- The first thing I do is for the three botanic gardens: UC
Davis, UC Berkeley, and UC Santa Cruz. Those persons have been
so nice to me, why shouldn't I do something nice to them?
Riess: You keep up a working connection with all of them?
131
Roderick: I can go to UC Berkeley, and they say to me, "You know where the
keys are. If you want to go in that hothouse, go get them and
don't bother us." Up at Tilden: "Damn it all! You have that
set of keys. I don't want anything to do with them. You keep
them and come and go as you want." I think it's awful nice to
have that. I just can't hardly believe that those people have
been so nice.
Riess: What are you most actively working on as a plantsman these days?
I know you're weeding a lot! [laughs]
Roderick: Of course seed collecting. I love seed. I put out a little
seed list. I have Ron Lutsko on my list now for the one reason
that he is young, and he wants to get a lot of rare and unusual
things from different parts of the world. We have this little
seed list that we sent around, and those botanic gardens send
their list in exchange. We have Ron's address on it, so all
those things go to him. That way he can get some of the seed of
plants that's he trying to find.
Riess: He's a landscaper, isn't he?
Roderick: Landscape architect. Goes mostly for dry or drought- tolerant
gardens. Nicely designed.
Riess: Are you saying that once a year you get out a mailing of what
you have?
Roderick: We're trying to keep under a hundred people.
Riess: Do you sell or exchange?
Roderick: We exchange. Quite often we ask if they have a dollar. That
covers postage. That's all we ask for. If they can do that,
we're happy. We never say anything about the cost of going out
and collecting. It would be absolutely unbelievable, the prices
that we charge.
We had a couple here last year that made my house their
home address for the four months they were here from England.
They go to different parts of the world every year and collect
and have this seed selling. They get up to five pounds sterling
per packet, and they can tell you about how many seeds you're
going to get per packet, too. I know there was one that was
four and a half pounds for the one packet. That's getting close
to eight dollars. I think they said they got fifteen seeds.
But they have to figure out to make their living.
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Riess:
Roderick;
It is fun to have some seeds that you know that somebody in
the world just would love to have and, oh, how thrilled they
are!
Do you write descriptions of your seeds, or do you just list
them by name?
We put our list down by the scientific name. For those that are
in a botanic garden, then we do give them field data and let
people know. Some of those things we go back year after year
for, the same thing, more or less just to fill space, nothing
else. But a lot of people ask over in their parts of the world,
"Where did this come from precisely?" They'll have a map so I
can point it out to them.
Awards
Riess: You've gotten many awards. From the American Rock Garden
Society, the Le Piniec Award. Why did you receive it?
Roderick: Le Piniec was the one that founded a famous nursery up in
Medford called Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery. He started that,
and then he was too old and turned it over to two persons, and
then they have turned it over to two more persons . He was a
Frenchman and quite a plantsman for the Siskiyou Mountains. He
loved those plants up there.
The [Le Piniec] award is for persons that have continued
trying to get more plants into cultivation from such things as
this, or just distributing cuttings or writing about them and
taking people out and showing them. It was all these kinds of
things. That was Owen Pearce's fault that I got that,
[laughter]
Riess: Then, the Rixford Award from the California Horticultural
Society?
Roderick: That's for all the little things [one] did behind the scenes,
for persons that weren't on the board. That was before I was
ever on the board, or council, as they call that. I did the
seed. I was on the plant discussion. I'm still on the plant
discussion, they can't get rid of me. They say I'm nosy about
plants: "As long as you've got to get your nose into it, at
least get up here and talk about it, if nothing else!" [laughs]
Riess: Do you go regularly still, and take plant material?
133
Roderick: Yes. I'm now starting to slow down. I'm having problems now.
I'm getting too old. Car lights hurt my eyes. I'm not going as
much as I used to. But up until, say, two years ago, in the
fifty years I've gone to Cal Hort I've only missed maybe
fifteen, twenty times. That's one of the ways you learn.
Native Plant Study Group: Publication Plans
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Linda Haymaker told me about your native plant study group,
did that start?
How
Riess:
Roderick;
Riess:
Roderick:
It started originally with California Horticultural Society and
eventually went to the Native Plant Society. It was started by
Lester Hawkins.
And that was about 1974?
I think it was December '72. I could go look up in my records
and tell you precisely. The first meeting or two I had
commitments and I couldn't meet with them.
That was a whole group of persons. There were about twenty
of us that would meet and talk about plants of horticultural
value that were native to the state of California. We went from
the book from A to Z.
What do you mean by "from the book?"
I mean Munz. It was Roman Gankin that went through the book.
At that time we only would look at perennials on up to trees and
woody plants. He went and eliminated everything of the annuals.
That saved a horrible amount of work alone.
We had these discussions. We started at A, and we'd take
each genus, two or three. Sometimes there would be one genus
that would have one species. That only took a few minutes, so
we'd keep on going on the list, and we'd keep knocking them off.
What was the intention in doing this?
Having a book eventually on the plants of horticultural value.
Now we're down to just about ten of us that meet quite
regularly. They meet at my house most of the time, here or
Jenny Fleming's. We are finishing up on the monocots, and we're
134
ready to publish our first book,
had a heck of a time--.
We've got to get money. We've
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick;
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
When you started out you had a book in mind?
Yes, just for all the plants in California. But we found out
that we had so much information that we decided we had to break
it down into parts. Unfortunately, I was gone in Turkey when
they had their last meeting on what they're going to go on to
from this one. I think it's going to be on some of our
perennials, like the penstemons and a few of those things.
Anyhow, we're still working on illustrations. We've got an
artist. We've got to get our line drawings done, and we're
going to have about four pages of pictures from colored slides.
We've got, we think, a darn good book. In fact, from what
little bit I've said about it in England, the Alpine Garden
Society wants two hundred copies right now for their book sales.
The monocots will be one volume?
Then we're going to start on perennials. This is what we talked
about in the past. Then, we're going to have woody plants.
When we get into woody plants, we think we're going to have
to break it into two volumes: trees- -that's probably one volume
there. But we don't really know. It's according to how
ambitious we get.
You take the plants one by one and describe them?
Yes, and what we think about them. Some of them, it might say
they're too rare and endangered and they shouldn't be tried.
Some of the flowers are so zero that they're of no economic
value, but only of botanical interest.
Of course you can only talk about them in California.
Yes. But enough of our members know our climates or are from
distances that we have enough information for, say, over in the
Sacramento -San Joaquin Valley, or coastal areas. We are having
a difficult time trying to bring in information for, say, the
Los Angeles basin area. That makes it more difficult.
Riess:
So, what about these people in England who buy it?
they going to do with it?
What are
135
Roderick: Just to find out for sure what we think of different ones and
how good they are. Then probably they'll haunt me to try to get
seed. [laughter]
f
Riess: I read some of the minutes of the group. [looking at paper]
Here's a meeting held at the Academy of Sciences.
Roderick: We've met all over. For quite a while we met at such places as
that, and at the library at Strybing, because of our large
group .
Riess: "Cultivars of California Natives"- -that is what you were then
calling the group?
Roderick: Various names that way. But we kind of kept that word
"cultivars" because so many, like Ceanothus and manzanitas, we
have so many different plants. For instance, in the
Arctostaphylos densiflora there are about four different
varieties in that one species. So, these are cultivars.
Riess: The list of people who attended meetings: Elizabeth McClintock,
Betsy Flack, Suzanne Schettler--.
Roderick: She's still with us.
Riess: Ernest Wertheim.
Roderick: He's dropped out a long time ago.
Riess: Tom Bass.
Roderick: He's dropped out.
Riess: Alan Bhrubaker.
Roderick: I haven't seen him in a long time.
Riess: Nancy Page.
Roderick: I don't remember that name.
Riess: Nancy Page from Arnold Arboretum
Roderick: Yes, we had a little correspondence with her.
Riess: Bill Day, Jim Hickey, Leo Gallegos.
Roderick: All long gone.
136
Riess: Mike Smith?
Roderick: Mike was forced to drop out because of his business.
Riess: Marshall Olbrich, and Lester Hawkins.
Roderick: Marshall doesn't drive at night anymore, and of course Lester is
dead.
Riess: Dick Hildreth.
Roderick: Dick is in Utah now.
Riess: Judith Skinner.
Roderick: I don't remember that name.
Riess: Kathy Kipping and John Kipping.
Roderick: It's just too far for them to come.
There are a few others that are not on there that are still
active .
Riess: That was a list from one meeting. At that meeting you looked at
sixty slides from the Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden cultivars.
Roderick: At that time there was also a Robert Smaus from Sunset Magazine
from southern California that would bring either the specimens
or slides up from Los Angeles. When he sent slides it was
probably that he couldn't make the trip. That's when we were on
Ceanothus and some of those big things that way.
Elizabeth McClintock comes up from time to time.
Riess: Roman Gankin is on this list. Also Jake Sigg.
Roderick: Yes. Jake has written the introduction to our thing, and it is
the most magnificent thing you've ever read. Short and brief,
but, boy, it tells everything!
And how exciting it was to have Lester Hawkins around.
Lester could really get things going, but he'd get frustrated
thinking of other things and forget what he was supposed to do.
But he was a great person.
Riess: David Takahashi?
137
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick;
David dropped out a long time ago .
year or two at the most.
He was here just for, oh, a
Riess :
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
Riess:
Roderick:
At this meeting a hundred copies of each of the meeting notes
had been printed for distribution. Each person was asked to
make additional notes on the plants discussed by the group.
I did all the reproduction. I had an in with one of the copy
outfits here. I could have it done for about half. There would
be pages and pages of these things, you know. I could get them
done cheaper than anybody else.
We used to send a lot of these to southern California.
They'd keep them, and we never did get any information back from
them. Nobody ever sent us anything back. Bob Smaus was the
only person. He came up.
Beecher Cramp ton.
Yes, on grasses.
Roz [Rosamond] Day was the one that took over. She's the
one wrote up our grasses, sedges, and rushes for the book. She
still comes. She's another one of our dolls. And we have
Caroline Spiller from Marin County, too, that comes. Caroline
writes gorgeous, and she gets carried away and gets way, way too
much. She's so great that we can tell her, "No, we can't use
that, but we can use this, we can use this." She's still just
as happy when we cut down about 90 percent.
Are you going to get a professional editor?
Oh, everything is all ready to go.
You are your own editors.
So far we're our own, but we have all this final putting-
together. Again, I know about it, but I can't tell you
precisely who. A good help is Harlan Kessell, who used to be
with UC Press. He's got it set up for who we're going to be
working with for this book, and it's a fellow that only works
with scientific work, or something of this nature. The fellow
seems, from what they've been telling me, absolutely just
thrilled to death to be able to put our book together. But we
have to first get money.
Riess:
Where would you go to for money?
138
Roderick: This is kind of out of my field, but we thought we'd try maybe
the state highways- -the fancy license plates, you know. Then,
there's an English outfit, Stanley Smith Horticultural Trust.
They have about two or three other ones that they're going to
try.
There's, a good chance that Jenny Fleming's husband can
help. He's just newly retired. But before he can do anything,
he has to finish a book for Kaiser Hospitals. Then he can have
time. He knows how to write the specs.
Riess: You refer to Jenny Fleming often. Tell me about her.
Roderick: Well, she and her husband built their own house here in
Berkeley. They have an all -California native garden. Scott
Fleming isn't so wild on plant material. He's more sedate, I
guess you could say. He likes the garden, he's very fond of it,
Jenny gets carried away, and her arms are flying saying, "Oh,
this is the greatest thing," and meanwhile he'll say, "Yes,
that's a nice plant, isn't it?"
"Doing the Flowers"
Roderick: I got into all kinds of crazy things. Way back when we had the
nursery I did three nightclubs - -well , one of them was more a
restaurant than anything else. They always wanted lots of
decorations. I don't remember how it got started, but anyhow,
the owners lived not too far from where I was born and raised. I
started decorating that, and I got into more and more of this.
Then, when I still had the nursery, I went in and did holiday
decorations and demonstrations for the public.
Riess: How did you learn that, from your mother?
Roderick: From my mother. She was a professional florist.
When I came down here the University found out about this
somehow, so I had to do all the flowers that went from the UC
Botanical Garden down to the main part of the campus, like for
the Friday seminar in the botany department and, once in awhile,
special bouquets for something else. Then up at Tilden--! don't
remember how I got started there, but somehow at the Nature
Center we started to work up holiday decorating workshops.
Riess: Using natives?
139
Roderick: Well, roadside weeds, garden prunings, and natives. I still
have a lot of that. In fact, my parking lot is partly covered
up now with stuff drying for the holiday decorating programs.
Riess: I saw that heap. I didn't drive over it, I was very careful.
But what's under there?
Roderick: Most of it is dock. It was just the perfect stage where they
will hold their color, but the seeds aren't ripe and they won't
drop. They drop so readily if you don't get them at the right
stage. So, I got those Monday.
I'll be starting to head up into the Sierra and collecting
cones, and certain things out of my garden I can take and dry
and keep. This afternoon I'll go down to Ardenwood and see what
kind of limbs have dropped off the trees down there and pick
those up. They have interesting pods and things on them. Then
I'll go up to UC and prune some of their trash- -I go into their
trash pile quite often. I'll go to Ruth Bancroft's and get into
her trash pile. I do all these kinds of things! [laughs]
Riess: When you do the classes, you come with all of the materials
yourself?
Roderick: Yes. We try to do our own collecting of everything. We go
around for greens, and we prune in the parks. We've got
everybody pretty well trained that certain plants, we'll take
and prune them out over the road where the trucks are starting
to hit them. We'll do the pruning for them so they'll have
that. This way we keep the people from going out and doing
destruction outside.
But my poor basement! You can't hardly get through it.
I've got piles of stuff, and this year I haven't had the time to
get it all stacked up nice and neat. It's just stacked, and the
floor hasn't been swept. I've got to clean, but I haven't swept
it yet.
Compost
Riess: Well, that brings us to the whole exciting question of compost!
When is your pile a "collection of plant materials," and when is
it "compost?"
140
Roderick: My compost piles are not so very good because I've got all these
redwood trees. The only place where I can make compost more or
less hidden, I guess you can say, is under the redwoods.
Instantly the roots are all up through it. It just practically
ruins it.
Riess: Because they are such shallow-rooted trees anyway?
Roderick: Yes. And they love getting up into needles and mulch. They
love mulches. It's almost impossible to break it up enough to
get the good stuff out. So what I do is go down to Wintergreen
Nursery with all of my buckets and get into his dump pile and
get his good stuff, which is just like perfect compost.
Riess: Who is Wintergreen Nursery?
Roderick: That's Mike --or Nevin- -Smith. (There are too many Mike Smiths,
so he had to use his middle name, Nevin.) He's in Watsonville.
He takes lots and lots of my excess plants. Then I can help
myself more or less to anything I want down at his place. That
way we get together once in awhile.
Riess: Do you call yourself an organic gardener, if anyone were to
bring that question up?
Roderick: I try to be as near as possible, but if I get bad pests in, I'm
going to use some kind of materials to control them. Your
organic gardening is great, but when you do get a bad
infestation of a pest you've got to do something to keep it from
going from your place to the neighbor's. I believe you've got
to use common sense, with a lot of caution.
Riess: Do you do things like bringing in ladybugs , or are you talking
about chemicals?
Roderick: Yes, you've got to use a little bit of chemicals. But if you
use lots of humus to keep your plants well -growing you're not
going to get too many diseases.
On top of that, if you've got lots of humus in your soil-
my soil is at least a quarter humus, more like half --then you
can use chemical fertilizers, because the plants can't absorb
any fertilizer unless it's broken down to the simplest
components, which is what the humus does to fertilizer anyhow.
So, if you've got plenty of humus, you don't have to use cow
manure and horse manure, you can use chemical.
Riess:
141
But I don't hardly use chemicals except, like, on my
cymbidium orchids. I use these little pellets that slow-
release called Osmacoat. It's expensive, but it lasts. I'm
using a three-month release one. Boy, it saves from having to
go around every week or two and give a soaking with chemicals in
it. If you've got lots of animal fertilizers to use, great.
I've got plenty of humus that I'm getting from Wintergreen
Nursery, and I don't even really hardly fertilize at all because
I've got so much food value from that humus.
On top of that, I still have piled out here some old horse
manure that I haven't gotten around yet. I've moved three-
quarters of it, and I've still got about a quarter left of that
pile. Which reminds me, my mother, when she was still
gardening, for her birthday got her load of cow manure every
year. That was what she wanted.
Your mother sounds quite wonderful.
Roderick: She was a character of the first quality.
Riess: Why?
Roderick: She was determined that she was going to have a darned good
garden, come hell and high water. And for her neighbors she'd
quite often take her wheelbarrow, and some of her compost pile,
with a plant and a bunch of fertilizer and a shovel, and take
them up and plant them. "Darn it all, you're taking care of it
This is what you need, and you're going to have it!"
Riess: Well, she sounds inspirational, and this sounds like a good
point to stop. Thank you very much.
Transcriber: Caroline Nagel
Final Typist: Merrilee Proffitt
142
TAPE GUIDE- -Wayne Roderick
Interview 1:
tape 1
tape 1
tape 2
Interview 2:
tape 3
tape 3
tape 4
Interview 3:
tape 5
tape 5
tape 6
April 30
side A
side B
side A
1990
tape 3, side B
May 24,
side A
side B
side A
tape 4, side B
May 31,
side A
side B
side A
1990
1990
tape 6, side B
Interview 4: June 6, 1990
tape 7 , side A
tape 7, side B
tape 8, side A
1
12
24
34
37
47
57
69
77
88
97
108
114
123
134
143
APPENDICES
A. "Propagation of Native Plants with Bulbs, Tubers, Corms , 144
Rhizomes, and Rootstocks," by Wayne Roderick and W. Richard
Hildreth, Fremont ia. Journal of the California Native Plant
Society, Volume 3, April 1975.
B. "The 1989 SPCNI Spring Expedition," Spring 1989 issue of 154
the Society of Pacific Coast Native Iris Almanac . pp. 7-10.
C. "Wildflower Haunts of California," by Wayne Roderick, 158
Bulletin of the American Rock Garden Society. Vol. 48 (1)
Winter 1990, pp. 3-13.
Appendix A. 144
Reprinted from Fremontia, Journal of the Cal
Native Plant Society, Volume 3, April 1975.
PROPAGATION OF NATIVE PLANTS WITH BULBS,
TUBERS, CORMS, RHIZOMES, AND ROOTSTOCKS
by Wayne Roderick and W. Richard Hildreth
Although we enjoy them today for their colorful
blooms, many of our native plants with fleshy under-
cround stems were once an important source of
food. Several Indian tribes in California made use
of the bulbs, tubers, rhizomes, and corms of the
monocotyledon families Liliaceae, Amaryllidaceae,
and Iridaceae as part of their food supply. Today,
however, if large numbers of people tried to live
Zygadene (Zigadenus fremonlii)
Drawings by Margaret Warrincr Buck
off the land as the Indians did, the survival of many
plant species would be seriously threatened.
In order for interested gardeners in California to
enjoy in their gardens the beauty of these often
difficult to grow plants, we offer suggestions in the
present article for propagation and culture which
may improve their chances for success. It should
be emphasized that we are not advocating the
heedless harvesting of bulbs (or other underground
structures) in the wild to satisfy one's "green
thumb" impulse. Many of these species are
extremely rare, while some are endemic to a highly
specific set of environmental conditions, and our
goal should be to protect and preserve them rather
than wantonly to destroy them. Opportunities often
arise to rescue plants in sites of reservoirs, roads,
and other developments. However, conservation
can also take place by increasing the number and
distribution of individuals through knowledge of the
techniques of propagation, combined with an under
standing of the plant in its natural habitat.
Rare and endangered species should be left alone
— except when actual removal of a doomed popula
tion is approved by qualified experts — and even seed
from such species should not be taken. In the case
of non-threatened species, where collecting is per
mitted, only a small part of any population or its
seed should be taken. Status of species can be
checked in Inventory of Rare and Endangered
Vascular Plants of California, recently published
by the California Native Plant Society — an in
valuable source of information.
Most of the species to be discussed in this article
may be propagated from seed, but seed is not always
available, viable, or easy to germinate. Furthermore,
the time to flowering is usually much greater from
seedlings as compared to vegetatively produced
plants. Seed propagation is considered in detail
later in this article.
The vegetative structures referred to are various
modifications of an underground stem, and may be
defined as follows:
Bulb — An underground leaf-bud surrounded by
thickened or fleshy scales (which are food storage
organs), and often covered by an outer coat of dry
scales. Example: Lilium pardalinum.
Corm — A short, fat, bulb-like underground
portion of a stem. The solid center portion of the
145
Bulb
Lilium pardalinum
Drawings by John Kipping
Corm
Brodiaea pulchella
Rhizome
Iris douglasiana
corm is composed of stored food. Example:
Brodiaea pulchella.
Rhizome — An underground stem or rootstock
with scales at the nodes, producing leafy shoots on
the upper side of the stem, and roots on the lower
side. Example: Iris douglasiana.
Tuber — A thick, so^d, short underground stem
with many buds. Example: Smilax californica.
Rootstock — Prostrate or underground root-like
stem, with herbaceous shoots appearing seasonally
and bearing roots on the underside. Example:
Veratrum spp.
Nursery Sources
Sometimes, by searching catalogs and visiting
nurseries, a commercial source may be found for
certain native bulbous plants. Be cautious about
buying California native bulbs from European
sources, particularly Erythronium, as they may
suffer from the long transit and being out of the soil
so long. A high percentage may even be rotted by
the time they get to the sales counter. Bulbs or
growing plants in containers from local nurseries
are likely to be more successful— if you can find
them. Native lilies, for instance, are rarely carried,
because most gardeners prefer the more showy
hybrids from the Oregon bulb growers; furthermore,
most native lilies are difficult to grow. On occasion,
Lilium humboldtii may be offered for sale. Unfor
tunately, it is usually packaged in a sealed plastic
bag and, since this is a dry bulb, it deteriorates in
just a few days. Reject any bulbs with soft or wet
spots. If your favorite is not available from a nursery
or catalog, you may wish to consider collecting it
in the wild.
Collecting
Remember that permits are required to collect
any plants from federal or state land and, even with
permits, there are restrictions controlling the
removal of plants or plant parts from certain areas,
while some plants are entirely "off limits." On
private property, it is advisable to have written per
mission from the owner before attempting to collect.
Trillium, Scoliopus, Allium, Iris, and Brodiaea
species are relatively easy to transplant from the
wild at any time, even when they are in bloom.
Calochortus, Erythronium, and Fritillaria are best
collected when the bulbs begin to go dormant, about
the time that the seed matures.
Stout tools are suggested for digging, such as a
small pick, a Combosco trowel (a long, narrow and
very sturdy implement), or even a screwdriver.
The greatest difficulty in collecting these plants is
in extracting the bulbs from the soil. Collecting sug
gestions for several genera and species follow:
Trillium — Rootstocks may be dug when the plant
is in bud, in flower, or in seed with little difference
in results as long as most of the root is collected.
Rootstocks may be four to eight inches or more
deep, and it is important to dig below this to recover
as much of the rootstock as possible. Trilliums gen
erally bloom in March, and they transplant readily
at this time. Of the three species of Trillium in Cali
fornia, T. chloropetalum is most common in the
wild, T. ovatum less so, and T. rivale is so rare that
few people ever see it in the wild, especially in
bloom. Perhaps fortunately, this latter species is
next to impossible to pry out of the ground; it grows
along wet stream banks, where the bulbs grow
wedged between rocks and roots of nearby trees
and shrubs.
Brodiaea — Most brodiaeas grow in heavy, gritty
clay with much rock, and a pick would be useful
for digging. Collecting can be done any time the
plants are seen in April until the seed capsules dis
appear in July. The best time to collect is probably
after the foliage has died down and the seed has
matured, since the bulbs are going dormant at this
time. If bulbs are dug earlier when foliage and flowers
are present, be careful not to remove the foliage
when transplanting; otherwise the bulbs may not
bloom the following year. Brodiaea appendiculata
is a wet-growing species and prefers to be kept damp
in the summertime.
Calochortus — Dig bulbs in May and June, when
the last flowers are fading, the seeds are maturing,
and the stem has lost most of its green color. At this
time the bulbs are mature and ready for collecting.
Watch carefully when digging through rocky soil for
calochortus; often bulbs will remain dormant for
several years without producing foliage or flowers.
When digging for a bulb, search through the dis
turbed soil for any additional dormant bulbs which
may be present. Calochortus are notorious for lying
dormant in the ground for several years without
sending up even a single leaf. When digging for
bulbs, closely examine the soil removed from a hole
for evidence of any dormant bulbs. New plants for
the garden can easily be started from these bulbs.
In some areas of the Mother Lode, the senior author
has dug a single bulb in bloom, only to discover
seven or eight additional dormant bulbs in the same
hole.
Calochortus uniflorus is found where it gets very
wet during the wintertime, stays wet during the
spring, and generally dries out in the late summer
time. Little difference has been noted in gardens
where this species was never watered and where
summer irrigation was practiced. Perhaps more
bulblets were formed on the bulbs which were not
watered in the summer. C. nudus grows in wet
meadows near little streamlets or springs in the
far northern part of the state. The bulbs grow in
continually moist soils. Both species grow well in
gardens in Europe, where summer rains are
received.
A Ilium — Onion bulbs can be dug almost any
time they are found. The best time for collecting
would probably be at flowering time, since color
variations are common, and if a specific color form
is wanted it could easily be seen at this season.
Vegetative propagation of the bulbs would ensure
the perpetuation of the desired colors.
Erythronium — AdderVtongues, or fawn-lilies
as they are also known, are probably the most diffi
cult to dig from the soil. The bulbs are exceedingly
brittle and shatter at the slightest touch, the remains
then being of little use for propagation. The best
time for collecting bulbs is after the fruit matures.
In digging the bulbs, start at the outer edge of a large
colony of plants, working toward the center.
Excavate at least six to eight inches down, digging
carefully underneath the bulbs as well as around it,
gradually working closer and closer until the full
length of the bulb is exposed and somewhat
loosened. Place four fingers beneath the bulb and lift
upwards gently, hoping for the best. Any shattered
bulbs may be left in place for possible regeneration.
(Or take this opportunity to taste a piece to sample
this article of the Indian's diet.)
Fritillaria — With the exception of F. agrestis,
biflora, liliacea, pluriflora, and striata, most Cali
fornia fritillaries occur in soil from which the bulbs
can be easily dug. The exceptions listed grow in
exceedingly heavy clay, and a good heavy pick is a
handy tool for extracting them. The clay-growing
types shatter very easily and one must work around
the bulbs with a delicate instrument like a narrow
trowel or a heavy-duty screwdriver. Gently pry
away chunks of clay from around the bulb, being
careful not to crush it.
Bulbs are best collected during the month of May
when the seed is mature. At this time the foliage and
stems are drying up, the bulb is fully mature and
ready to go dormant. Quite often when the stem is
bent or touched even slightly, the whole top of the
plant separates from the bulb. No harm is done;
however, if the bulbs are dug while in flower, it may
take two or three years to recover strength enough
to bloom again.
Fritillaria purdyi is almost impossible to collect
as bulbs in the wild, because the bulbs are wedged
in between layers of rock and are easily damaged if
147
the rock is moved. It would be much wiser to collect
a bit of seed, rather than risk damaging the bulbs.
Garden requirements for this species are very diffi
cult to duplicate and the plants tend to be rather
short-lived in cultivation. Fairly good results have
been obtained by planting bulbs or seedlings in a
combination of a basic soil mix (equal parts of sand,
redwood sawdust, and leaf mold) supplemented
with an equal portion of road rock — crushed pieces
about one-inch in diameter.
In the same general areas where F. purdyi is native
one will find F. glauca growing also. Even when
native soil has been brought into the garden, results
with this species have been very poor. Out of many
separate collections, only five or six bulbs remain,
generally with only one flower a year. South of
Livermore, growing in a very loose scree soil, one
Soap Plant (Chlorogalum pomeridianum)
may find F. falcata. The bulbs may be dug very
easily, but their survival in the garden, even with
native soil, has been disappointing. Seed propaga
tion of this and the previous two species may be a
better means of obtaining plants.
Seed Propagation — Collecting
During the season when mature seeds may be
collected in the wild or from a garden, it may be
difficult to recognize the desired plant. Rather than
the lush foliage and beautiful flowers so familiar in
the spring, only shriveled-up leaves and dry stalks
may be visible in the arid summer. However, plants
may be labeled or even mapped during full bloom,
so that seed can be easily collected on a later visit
when the same location looks so changed. The fruit
containing the seeds should be harvested before the
capsules dehisce; otherwise the seeds will be scat
tered by the winds or devoured by birds or mammals.
Often the capsules may be inhabited by hungry
larvae of various insects. It is possible with some
species to pick a stalk containing immature fruit,
place it in water in a container in a sunlit spot, as on
a windowsill, and within a few days to obtain fresh
ripe seed.
Storage and Germination
Although seeds of certain native bulbous plants
may remain viable for a number of years, one's
chances for successful germination would likely
increase by using freshly harvested seed. If it is
necessary to hold seed for any length of time, it
would be well to clean and dry the seed first, seal it
in a container, which can then be stored for a year
or longer in a refrigerator. Seeds of some species
may require cold-moist stratification for periods up
to three months before germination will occur (e.g.,
Lilium humboldtii). Most other species will germi
nate readily within a few days or weeks after planting
in the fall.
Soil Mix for Seeds
A soil mix consisting of equal parts of coarse sand,
coarse redwood sawdust, and leaf mold has been
successful for germinating seeds of most species
discussed in this article. This combination will
provide a friable medium that crumbles readily in
one's hand, while providing ample humus which will
supply sufficient nutrients to the seedlings following
germination.
148
Very sharp drainage from the soil mix is of para
mount importance, and the soil mix described has
this characteristic, although other materials and
combinations may be equally suitable. Even sharper
drainage may be obtained by putting a layer of
coarse sand or similar material in the bottom of a
seed flat or pot prior to adding the soil mix. The
seed may then be broadcast over the surface of the
soil and lightly covered with the same mix. A general
rule to follow regarding depth of sowing would be
to cover the seed no more than twice the diameter of
the seed. Unless the seed is very coarse, a covering
of Vi-inch of soil mix would be more than sufficient.
A final shallow layer of very coarse sand may be
added, which prevents the seed from being washed
out of the soil mix by breaking up the falling rain
drops and allowing water just to trickle through the
medium.
Stratification
With the pots or flats placed outside, exposed to
the elements, natural cold-moist stratification will
occur during the rainy winter months. Protection
from gophers, mice, birds, and other predators
should be provided. An alternative method would be
to accomplish cold-moist stratification in a refrig
erator. Place the seeds in a mix of equal parts of sand
and shredded peat moss, moistened but not dripping
wet. Place in plastic bags or in small covered jars,
in the vegetable crisper or other section of the
refrigerator where the temperature is between 35°
and 42° F. The see-through plastic bags or glass
jars permit inspection periodically. If germination
occurs remove and plant at once. Most seeds
respond to stratification of thirty to sixty days. Some
require ninety to one hundred and tWenty days. After
the prescribed time, the seed can be sown as pre
viously described. (There are several modifications
of this technique, using layers of paper towels or
muslin, etc. and even placing some kinds of seeds
in the freezing compartment.) Unfortunately specific
information on the germination of various species
is incomplete and scattered.
Post Germination Culture
Following germination, the cultural conditions
necessary for continued growth of the seedlings may
vary according to the species and the nature of its
original habitat. Some seedlings must be maintained
continually moist; others should go through a
seasonal dry period, thus duplicating the arid
summer months in the wild. However, it seems that
Checker-Lily (Fritillaria lanceolata)
most species ofErythronium prefer to be kept damp
in cultivation, although quite the opposite condition
prevails in the wild. Seedlings should be watered
regularly to keep them moist in the summer, with
probably one watering a week after the first of
August. E. tuolumnense seedlings will perish in
cultivation if allowed to dry out completely, although
its home in the Sierra Nevada foothills of Tuolumne
and Stanislaus Counties is absolutely bone-dry all
summer long.
Seedlings of Allium, Brodiaea, Calochortus, and
Fritillaria should be kept moist until about the first
of July, or until the edges of the tiny leaves start
turning yellow. Watering should then be halted and
the pots turned on their sides to make sure the
seedlings receive a complete summer's rest. Bulb
149
size may be more than doubled in one growth cycle
by keeping them moist until this late in the season.
With the exception of the slow-growing Lilium
humboldtii, which should be kept only slightly moist,
lilies must be kept damp at all times. Quite often
some of the wet-growing lilies will not show seedling
leaves above ground for some time; nonetheless,
bulbs are forming under the soil mix. Even if
germination is not observed, it may be better to
assume it has occurred and maintain a high moisture
level without disturbing the soil. Growth of lilies
is quite often upset by disturbing them the first year
after germination. It may be desirable to delay trans
planting seedlings until after three years of growth;
however, to avoid overcrowding at this stage, the
seed should initially be sown rather widely spaced.
Transplanting
It is generally preferable to allow seedlings of all
the species mentioned, especially those of Calo-
chortus and Fritillaria, to remain in the pot for two
years after germination. When the young leaves
Trillium (Trillium ovatum)
8
150
have died down the second year, the bulblets can be
transferred to a larger container at a wider spacing
to encourage more rapid growth. Calochortus and
FritHlaria often die if the seedlings are disturbed
much the first year.
During the first two years in cultivation, growth of
several species of FritHlaria (F. agrestis, biflora,
liliacea, pluriflora, and striata) is superior in a light,
loose soil mix, compared to their growth in the stiff,
heavy clay native soils. Later on, however, these
bulbs can be transplanted to clay soils. Similarly
species of Brodiaea and Calochortus, which usually
grow in clay soils in the wild, perform far better in
our gardens in a light, porous soil mix, with little
or no clay. One exception to this generalization
seems to be FritHlaria recurva; seedlings of this
species persist only a few years in cultivation regard
less of the soil mixtures or cultural techniques
applied. Perhaps planting seedlings in soils obtained
from areas where the species grows naturally will
lead to success.
Dry seeds of slink pod (Scoliopus bigelovii) germi
nate readily in the fall, but little is known about
transplanting this species in cultivation. This coastal
inhabitant has a slender rootstock which taps under
ground moisture from damp shady spots.
Time to Blooming
The time before a seedling will reach flowering
age may be considerable and one should be prepared
to be patient. This time span may vary from one
species to another; for instance, trilliums may take
ten years to bloom from seed, whereas brodiaeas
may bloom in three years, and alliums in two or three
years. Calochortus, Erythronium, and FritHlaria
generally flower in the fourth season from seed, as
do most lilies; however, Lilium pitkinense often
blooms within eighteen to thirty months after germi
nation. In any case, in spite of the long delay, when
flowering does commence, the display certainly
justifies the wait.
Garden Culture
The most important factor to remember in growing
roost of our native bulbous plants in the garden is
the requirement for summer drought in order to
produce the best flowering. These plants have
evolved under natural conditions that have led to
the development of specialized underground root
structures which are adapted to the summer baking
they receive in the wild. These conditions can be
m°re or less duplicated in our gardens by planting
on a hot, south-facing slope. Most species of Allium,
Brodiaea, and Calochortus would succeed well
planted here, as well as those fritillaries which
grow in clay soils. FritHlaria lanceolata, however,
would do better under cooler conditions.
With the possible exception of Calochortus, most
of the species considered will adapt to almost any
garden soils without additional preparation. Calo
chortus are generally much superior if they are
grown in large containers in a very light loose soil
mixture. Following flowering, the plants may
become untidy as the bulbs go dormant. Simply
move the containers out of sight, and withhold
water during the summer.
Bulbs of Brodiaea, Calochortus, and Allium can
be stored out of the ground for several months prior
to planting without harm. An easy storage method
would be to bury clean, healthy bulbs in dry sand
in a flat or box, which could then be placed in the
sun without irrigation. Thus exposed, the bulbs will
become summer-cured. A screen placed over the
flat will offer protection from hungry birds and
mammals. Calochortus and some species of Allium
seem to be able to stay dormant until one gets around
to planting them, but most of these bulbs should be
planted in the garden as soon as possible in October,
not later than the first part of November. Brodiaeas
will start to grow promptly as fall approaches, and
these bulbs must be planted by October or November
or they will shrivel up and die.
In the garden a top dressing of good leaf mold with
hoof and horn meal or bone meal may be added about
the first of October. This may be supplemented with
liquid fertilizer, particularly on potted bulbs, once
the leaves appear above the pot. Monthly applica
tions of a weak solution would be sufficient to obtain
lush, even growth. If directions for a liquid type
of fertilizer call for two tablespoons per gallon of
water for example, it would be desirable to reduce
the concentration to one tablespoon per gallon of
water. It may be possible to use the newer slow-
release type of dry fertilizers in place of monthly
applications of a liquid fertilizer.
If the annual rains do not commence by mid
October in California, pots or beds of bulbs should
be thoroughly soaked and kept moist until the onset
of the rainy season. Additional irrigation may be
necessary if prolonged dry periods occur during the
winter. The blooms of Trillium, Scoliopus, Dis-
porum, Smilacina, andClintonia are much improved
if the plants receive ample supplemental watering
during the summertime.
Insect pests, other than aphids, are not generally
a problem on these plants in the garden. When
encountered, they can simply be washed off with
water or controlled with a light dusting or spray of
151
Iris macrosiphon
an appropriate insecticide. Often in gardens a fungus
will damage the foliage of Fritillaria, Allium, and
Lilium, while species of Brodiaea and Calochortus
are rarely attacked. Control can be accomplished
by treatment of the foliage with a suitable fungicide,
with additional fungicide applied to the soil and
soaked down into the container or bed. Most of the
troublesome fungi are soil-borne, and it is easier
to control them at their source.
This precaution cannot be stated strongly enough:
The manufacturer's directions for the safe use of
any pesticide should be strictly followed.
Uncommon Garden Genera
Several species and genera which also have quite
showy flowers have not yet been considered in this
discussion. Although they are not commonly planted
in the garden, the results obtained may be quite
worth the extra effort required.
Clintonia species, for some unknown reason, are
very difficult to transplant into areas where they
are not normally found. Similarly, the sand lily,
Leucocrinum montanum, is not happy when brought
down into low, damp areas, usually fading out
after two or three years in the garden. Xero-
phyllum tenax (bear grass) will transplant if the deep,
long, fine roots are retained undamaged in digging
the clumps of this grass-like plant. At lower eleva
tions, where winters are less severe, the clumps of
bear grass must be burned in order to initiate flower
ing. If burning is accomplished carefully in the fall,
flowers will usually appear the following year. The
plants should be allowed a rest period for a year or
more before the process is repeated.
A challenge to gardeners is presented by the mag
nificent desert lily, Hesperocallis undulata. The
only recorded instance of this beautiful desert plant
blooming in cultivation was in the 1880s. Duplica
tion of its native habitat under garden conditions
is difficult; flowering fails to occur under mild
weather conditions where there is too much moisture
in the winter.
Veratrum species are very difficult to transplant
and some of them are quite spectacular in flower
The corn-lily, V. californicum, of the Sierra Nevada?
has been transplanted successfully. The show>
north coast species, V.fimbriatum, is less amenable
to moving, and perhaps should be enjoyed only in its
native habitats. In one trial, only six out of 200 seed
lings survived transplanting.
Although they have quite showy flowers, it migh
be best to forego species of Zigadenus if smal
children are in the garden. Some species may b<
poisonous if the leaves or other parts are ingested'
Cattle and sheep-poisoning cases have been docu
mented.
The bulbs of some species of soap plant, Chloro
galum, have found use as a soap, food, and fisl
narcotic by early Indians. The flowers are generall;
small, nocturnal and, with two exceptions, no
exceptionally showy. Two quite rare but show
species should only be admired and enjoyed in thei
native habitats. C. parviflorum occurs in Riversid
and San Diego Counties, while C. purpureum grow
in Jolon Valley, Monterey County. Both are ver
difficult to establish in gardens.
Camassias are comparatively easy to grow, an
they can occasionally be found for sale in nurserie
10
152
Fawn-Lily
(Erythronium califomicum)
in the fall. Camassia species grow naturally under
wet conditions, and they make good garden plants,
provided they are put near a lawn or where summer
watering is adequate. Their flowers are quite distinct
and showy. The main^onsideration is that they must
grow where there is a lot of moisture. Camassia
bulbs should not be allowed to dry out, and should
be planted soon after purchasing or obtaining them.
Maianthemum dilcttatum (false lily-of-the-valley)
makes a delightful foliage plant for the shady garden.
It is a fine, delicate groundcover which must be kept
watered at all times or it will perish. The flowers
are anything but showy. It is found from about San
Francisco north, becoming a very common plant
further north in the damp areas of the redwood
forests.
Still less common garden subjects for various
reasons are the following genera: Narthecium
(bog-asphodel), Tofieldia, Smilax, Streptopus
(twisted stalk), Stenanthium, Odontostomum, and
Schoenolirion. Schoenolirion species are easy to
transplant, but not very showy. Odontostomum is
so rare and grows in clay soil, which is extremely
difficult to penetrate when dry, perhaps it should
11
153
be enjoyed only in the wild. Similarly, Stenanthium,
although a delightful little plant, is very rare, and
duplicating its natural environment in a garden
would be difficult.
Streptopus in California is rather rare and some
what similar to Disporum (fairy bells), although the
latter is very plentiful and has showy flowers. Smilax
would be quite at home in most gardens, except that
objections might be raised to the spines occurring
along the stems, the long deciduous period, and the
size of the plant, often twining twenty to twenty-five
feet into nearby trees. It transplants with difficulty,
and deer readily browse it right down to ground
level. Narthecium and Tofieldia may persist for only
a short time in the garden, even when transplanted
Slink- Pod (Scoliopus bigelovii)
into black muck-like soil transported from their
native high-elevation habitats.
For most of these bulbous native plants, with the
exceptions noted, we encourage your garden experi
mentation and enjoyment. Particularly do we
encourage conservation attempts through propaga
tion by seed and transplanting of those native plants,
especially rare ones, which may be threatened by
imminent road building, construction, or develop
ment. It can be hoped that some plants may thus be
preserved from the path of onrushing bulldozers
for future generations of Californians to study and
appreciate, even if just in our gardens.
MISS BUCK'S DRAWINGS
by Gladys L Smith
The illustrations accompaning the article, "Propa
gation of Bulbous Native Plants," in this issue are
the work of Margaret Warriner Buck. They are a
small selection from a total of 150 illustrations
prepared by Miss Buck for one of the most popular
books ever written about California native plants,
The Wild Flowers of California, by Mary Elizabeth
Parsons, first published in 1897.
Little is known about Miss Buck's life today. Her
family home was apparently in San Rafael. She and
Elizabeth Parsons shared an interest in drawing and
painting and for a time were members together in an
art class given in San Rafael by a Mr. Latimer. As
the wildflower book took shape in the 1890s, it was
only natural for the author to turn to her talented
companion of the Latimer class for assistance with
the illustrations.
Elizabeth Parsons offered altogether six printings
of her book from the first edition in 1897 to the last
in 1930. Then a few years after Miss Parsons' death.
a seventh edition was brought out in 1955 by the
California Academy of Sciences. This was made
possible largely through the cooperation and permis
sion of Mrs. Thomas T. Kent of Marin County who
is today the legal owner of all materials left by Miss
Parsons, who was a cousin of Thomas T. Kent. This
material includes the original pen and ink plate*
prepared by Margaret Buck.
The plates were originally designed for coloring
It will never be known how many owners of The
Wild Flowers of California, as they identified their
plants, filled in with crayon or watercolors t
beautiful and accurate black and white illustrations
drawn so long ago by Margaret Warriner Buck.
she is remembered for nothing more than t
drawings, it is enough.
12
154
Appendix B
This partial text of the Spring 1989 issue
of the Society for Pacific Coast Native
Iris Almanac describes Wayne Roderick as
teacher, and guide to the great out of
doors .
THE 1989 SPCNI SPRING EXPEDITION
Forty three intrepid and dedicated
irisarians braved the ominous threat of
stormy weather and the uncertainties of
a harrowing bus ride over tortuous log-*
ging roads of the southwest Oregon moun
tains, just for the pleasure of seeing
their favorite iris species growing and
blooming in the wild. Actually, the
weather was ideal, the bus was comfort
ably equipped with modern conveniences,
its driver congenial and cooperative,
and everyone had a memorable experience.
So it is that the first (annual?)
SPCNI-sponsored trip to view native iris
has become history. Historically, this
was by no means the first PCN trek,
people having explored hillsides and gar
dens singly and in groups looking for
native iris ever since the times of the
earliest botanical 'collectors. Modern
day treks date back to the late 1950s,
some 15 years before the establishment
of SPCNI, when a dozen or so irisarians
from Washington and Oregon got together
each year for 4 different years to ex
plore Oregon and Northern California
iris stands. In April, 1977, 4 years
after the SPCNI was founded, members
from Southern California organized a
trek to visit the gardens of George
Stambach and the McCaskills in Pasadena.
Last year a group of SPCNI members and
others from the Santa Rosa area organ
ized a visit to iris stands around their
area and westward to the coast. They
reported having such a good time that
others, perhaps out of sheer jealousy,
wanted to do it, too. It was from this
beginning that our SPCNI-sponsored tour
became first a goal and eventually,
largely through the efforts of Adele
Lawyer and the help and advice of
friends both in and out of SPCNI, a
reality.
As planned, the group gathered at a
motel in Roseburg, Oregon on the even
ing of Friday, May 12, arriving by air
and surface travel as suited their cir
cumstances. After dinner, everyone met
in the motel conference room for intro
ductions, a briefing, and a slide pres
entation showing pictures of the species
and means of identification. Introduc
tions revealed participants from Oregon,
northern and southern California, and,
notably, Dora Sparrow, who had come all
the way from New Zealand just for this
trip.
The bus left the motel promptly at
8:30 am Saturday and made the first stop
a half hour later on a little lane off
Highway 42, which leads from near Rose-
burg to the coast. There we had our
first view of I. chrysophylla and I.
tenax, growing among ferns and ever
greens. Here, also, Wayne Roderick
started what was to become a major fea
ture of the trip; for while everyone
else was looking at iris, Wayne was
gathering samples of the surrounding
plants to identify for us as we pro
ceeded in the bus toward our next stop.
Wayne is well suited for this role,
having managed both the University of
California and the Regional Parks Bo
tanic Gardens, and collected extensively
not only in the region through which we
were traveling, but also world-wide for
both gardens. He is an authority on
Indian uses of the native plants and
was able to share some of his knowledge
with us.
155
Our next stops were along a. logging
road a mile south of China Flat between
Powers and Agness. Here we saw I. in-
nominata in all shades of bright orange
to yellow and in many configurations of
petal shapes and markings. It was easy
to see why I.innominata has been such an
imortant genetic source by hybridizers
of our modern cultivated clones. Here,
too, we experienced our first confront
ation with what was to become the most
difficult part of the trip: tearing
peopl* away from the flowers and getting
them back on the bus.
At the summit of the Powers-Agness
road where we stopped for lunch, we
found more J. innominata , but this time
in pale yellow to cream colors.
Pale yellow form of J. innominata
seen near our lunch stop
Three more stops were made on our way
down to the coast. As we came closer to
the coast J. innominata merged into J.
douglasiana colonies, and on the final
stop in a large area which was being re
forested, we found clumps of pure J.
douglasiana.
Saturday night was spent in a motel
at Brookings, Oregon, where Gigi Hall
made attractive and colorful name tags
for everyone.
In the morning, we made a short stop
at Azalea State Park to see fragrant
native azaleas, some of which were said
to be over 300 years old. That and a
second brief stop at a Redwood State
Park along Highway 197 in California,
were the only non-iris stops of the trip
The first iris stop of the day was to
have been on a road off Highway 199 at
Gasquet, California; but before we got
there someone on the bus yelled, "Irises I1
The bus driver found a wide spot on the
highway and everyone poured off the bus
to brave the very real danger of 60-mile
an-hour traffic on a major state highway
with only 4 or 5 feet of flat space be
tween the pavement and the bank on
which the iris were growing.
The highway department left little
room along state route 199 for
Wayne Roderick to tell us about
the plant he is holding
Fortunately no one was killed, and
when we did arrive at Gasquet, we turned
left Off Highway 199 on a road which cir
cled in back of town. About a mile from
the highway the bus driver found a good
place to stop. Here we found irises sim
ilar in color and configuration to those
seen earlier along the highway, that is a
pale cream-yellow background marked and
washed with purple. These correspond to
the interspecific crosses between I. in
nominata and J. douglasiana known to
occur in the area and formerly called J.
thompsonii.
156
Swallowtail butterfly contemplating
the pollination of I.thompsonii
during our stop at Gasquet
From there we cruised back into Or
egon, turning left on a logging road
out of the little town of O'Brien. This
road, the second scheduled stop of the
day had been recommended by Jon Splane,
a SPCNI member from Eugene, Oregon;
however, Wayne Roderick also knew of
the road, having previously collected
there. This was fortunate because
Wayne knew of a wide place on the grav
el road about 5 or 6 miles from the
highway where the 50-foot bus would be
able to turn around. This "wide place"
also proved to be a delightful spot
where the logging road crossed over
Whiskey Creek, and we quickly chose it
as the ideal place for lunch.
Wayne conducting a "Botany 1A Class"
in the wide place on the road near Whiskey
Creek. Whiskey Creek bridge is in the background
157
Here we found our first Varlingtonia
calif arnica, (pitcher plant or cobra
lily) , in a little bog area a few feet
from where the bus had stopped. There
must have been a hundred or more of
these odd cobra-shaped, insect eating
plants and everyone went wild snapping
cameras and crowding to get a better
look. Of course, we later found them
by the thousands in swampy seepage
slopes, not more than a hundred yards
or so down the road, but that first
sight was a real thrill.
QkttfT* mi
>,ji
*• s**m* it dP*\T^P ^
>^mt ••**"**''*
/*»•. »^:Vjg/ifcL» ««*
Mass of Darlingtonia calif ornica
Cream-yellow flowers of Iris
bracteata rising above a clump
of brilliant pink phlox
We took our lunches where our fancy
dictated: to the edge of the rushing
stream or into the woods, and everyone
felt the magic of the surroundings.
Some nice plants of Dicentra oregonum
were much photographed and Wayne iden
tified surrounding plants and trees at
a roadside gathering.
From there we traveled back down the
road for a couple of miles, either on
10
Lacy, white Iris chrysophylla on Cow Creek Loop
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INDEX- -Wayne Roderick
164
American Rock Garden Society, Le
Piniec Award, 132
Anderson, E. B. , 120-121
Albush, Christifer, 2
Baker, Milo, 21
Baker, Herbert G. , 43, 51-52, 64,
68, 119
Bancroft, Ruth (Bancroft Dry Garden,
Walnut Creek, CA) 17, 37, 139
Bass, Tom, 135
Beard, Helen-Mar, 41-42, 44, 118
Berkeley Horticultural Nursery,
Berkeley, CA, 27
Berry Botanic Garden, Portland OR,
38
Bhrubaker, Alan, 135
Blake, Anita, 35, 70
Bios, May, 69, 105
Bonickson, John, 78
Bowe rman , Mary , 116
Brandegee, Katherine and Townsend,
99
Brewer, Leo, 77, 79
Brickell, Chris, 122-123
Bureau of Land Management, 89
Burr, Joyce, 79
California Floral Nursery, Fulton,
CA, 60
California Horticultural Journal.
118-119
California Horticultural Society,
meetings, 34-35; Rixford Award,
132
California native plants, gardening
with, 14-15; See California
Native Plants Society.
California Native Plant Society, 29,
63, 77ff-99, 111; Inventory of
California Natural Areas. 87;
Inventory of the Rare and
Endangered Plants of California.
81, 83-86, 111; study group
[Cultivars of California
Natives], 113-118
California State Park Commission, 78
Caro, Piro, 118-119
Chaney, Ralph, 49-50
chemical fertilizers, 140
Christ, Anton, 44, 52, 66, 69, 71
Church, Thomas D. , 32-34
Clark, W. B. , Nursery, San Jose, 26,
27
composting, 139-140
Crampton, Beecher, 137
dawn redwood, 49-50, 69
Day, Rosamond, 137
Day, Bill, 136
Dempsey, Jack, 2
Domoto, Toichi, 9, 27-28
Donovan, Lavelle Marie, 3
Donnell, Dewey, garden, Sonoma, 32
Doty, Ken, 27
drought -tolerant plants, 60, 91
Dry den, Kath, 124-125
Eastwood, Alice, 98, 118
Edmonds, Louis, Nursery, Danville
CA, 91, 97
Edwards, Steve, 109, 112
Eisen, Gustaf, 99
Emery, Dara, 111
Everett, Percy, 111, 119
Field Guide to Pacific States
Wildf lowers. 114-115
Flack, Betsy, 135
Fleming, Jenny and Scott, 79, 133
floras [for California], 47, 112,
115-117, 133-138
Friends of the Regional Parks
Botanic Garden, 77-79
Fruge, August and Susan, 79
165
Gallegos, Leo, 136
Gankin, Roman, 111, 133, 136
Garden Conservancy, 37
Gilkey, Howard, 13-14
Goodspeed, Thomas, 69
Greene, Edward L. , 57-58, 98
Hall, Tony, 125
Halliwell, Brian, 125
Halprin, Lawrence, 33
Hardy Californlans . 117
Hawkins, Lester, 59-60, 133, 136
Hayakawa, Margedant, 120
Haymaker, Linda, 133
Hickey, Jim, 136
Hickman, Jim, 115
Hildreth, Dick, 135
Hood, Leslie, 87
Howell, John Thomas, 118
Huntington Gardens, Pasadena, CA,
120
Hutchinson, Paul C., 44, 65, 66
Japanese nurseries, East Bay, 7, 9-
11
Jepson, Willis Linn, 47, 112, 115
Jones, Marcus, 70, 98
Karok Indian tribe, Klamath River,
CA, 63-64
Kessell, Harlan, 137
Kimnach, Myron, 120
Kipping, Ted, 106-107
Kipping, John, 106, 136
Laetsch, Watson, 43, 79-81, 119
landscape architects, 32-34
Lutsko, Ron, 15, 33-34, 131
Manual of the Flowering Plants of
California. See Jepson.
Matthews, Brian, 128
McClintock, Elizabeth, 118, 135-136
McLellan, Rod, Nursery, 36
McNear, George P., 12
Menzies, Art, 58-59, 70, 93, 111,
113
Menzies, Barbara, 58
Menzies, Rob, 58
Moore, Alice, 122
Mott, William Penn, 77-
Munz, Philip A. , 115, 133
Nature Conservancy, 86-87
Niehaus, Theodore F. , 114
nursery business, 21ff-34; East Bay,
7, 9; California native plants,
91
Oakland Spring Garden Show, 13-14
Olbrich, Marshall, 59-60, 136
Orchid Society, 35-36
Ornduff, Robert, 47, 75, 80, 96, 98,
118-119
Page, Nancy, 135
Payne, Theodore, 96-97
Pearce, Owen, 119
Petaluma, CA, lff-12, 15, 24-27, 39;
chicken ranching, 3-6; families,
12; Russian Jews in, 3-4
Petaluma Garden Club, 16
Plant, Jonathan, 33
Port Orford cedar, 94-95
Purdy, Carl, 96-97
pygmy forests, 55-57
Raiche, Roger, 91, 95
Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden, 65,
92, 119, 136
Reagan, Ronald, and UC, 42-43
Reinelt, Frank, 30-31
Reiter, Victor, 25-28, 34-35, 92
Roberts, Harry, 43
Roderick, Frank S., 2ffl8
Roderick, Joseph, 1-2
Roderick, Martha C., 3ff-18, 59-60,
141
Roderick, Wayne, collecting trips,
61-62, 84ff-92; education, 20-
23, 40-41, 47-48; hired by UC,
39-40; hybridizing, early
attempts, 16; orchid growing, 12-
13, 35-36; philosophy, 66;
propagating bulbs, 50, 120ff-132;
weeding, 44-45; World War II, 19-
20
Roof, Jim, 54-55, 77, 79, 84, 90,
95, 100-113
166
Rowe , Denys , 110
Rowntree, Lester, 41, 96-98, 117
Royal Horticultural Society, 121-
123
Santa Barbara Botanic Garden, 65,
119
Sawyer, John, 94
Schettler, Suzanne, 80, 135
Seneres, Al , 107-108
Sharsmith, Helen, 116
Sigg, Jake, 136
Sissinghurst , garden [England], 126
Skinner, Judith, 136
Smaus , Robert, 136
Smith, [Mike] Nevin, 28-29, 136, 140
Spiller, Caroline, 137
Stanley Smith Horticultural Trust,
138
Stebbins, Ledyard, 54, 79-83, 93
Strybing Arboretum, San Francisco,
CA, 58, 69, 114
Sunset Magazine. 12, 14, 136
Sunset Western Garden Book. 31-32
Takahashi, David, 137
Thompson and Morgan Seed Co., 123-
124
Thorne, Robert, 111
Tilden Botanic Garden [East Bay
Regional Parks Botanic Garden] ,
65, 100-113; records, 104-105;
volunteers, 104
United States Forest Service, 89, 93
University of California, Berkeley,
Botanical Garden, 39-76; flood,
1964, 71-72; California native
area, 50ff-64; classes, 40-41;
collecting class material, 42-
43, 46-47; decent program, 75-
76; freeze, 1972, 72-73, 78;
Indian Uses, 62-64; Mather Grove,
73-74; minority workers in the
1960s, 66-68; pgymy forest, 55-
57; Plant Explorers of the West,
36-37, 62-63, 70; soil, 51-52,
54-55; vernal pool, 53, 55
University of California, Berkeley,
Department of Botany, 40-43, 46-
47, 57, 64-65
University of California, Davis, 42
43
University of California, Hastings
Preserve, 81, 97-98
Van Rensselaer, Maunsell, 110
Verity, Mr. [at UCLA], 92
vernal pool plants, 53, 55, 87-89
Vetterle and Reinelt's, Nursery, 29
31
Von Graf en Nursery, Santa Rosa, 27,
28
Walska, Madame Ganna (Lotus land,
Santa Barbara) , 35
Waters, George, 125-126
Wertheim, Ernest, 33, 135
West, James, 70
Western Hills Nursery, Occidental,
CA, 59-60
Williams, Margaret and Lor ing, 93-
94, 120-121
Wintergreen Nursery, Watsonville,
CA, 28-29, 140
Wolf, Myrtle, 95
Wollers, Mary, 81
Suzanne Bassett Riess
Grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Graduated from
Goucher College, B.A. in English, 1957.
Post-graduate work, University of London and the
University of California, Berkeley, in English and
history of art.
Feature writing and assistant woman's page editor,
Globe-Times. Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Volunteer work on starting a new Berkeley newspaper.
Natural science decent at the Oakland Museum.
Free-lance Photographer.
Editor in the Regional Oral History Office since 1960,
interviewing in the fields of art, environmental
design, social and cultural history, horticulture,
journalism, photography, Berkeley and University
history.
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